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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 26, 2011 23:29:50 GMT -5
Erik Barzeski believes that the right wrist straightening action through impact is a significant power source and he calls it the 5th accumulator. See - thesandtrap.com/t/44717/is-there-a-5th-power-accumulatorHe wrote-: "I can generate a lot more power hinging my right wrist back than I can rolling my left forearm and likely as much as #2 only." He seemingly believes that he can generate as much power via a right wrist hinging action than he can generate by releasing PA#2. Consider this superb golf swing. Here are capture images which show that he maintains an intact LAFW/FLW throughout his downswing/followthrough swing action. Image 1 - early downswing. Image 2 - mid-downswing. Image 3 - impact Image 4 - P7.5 position. Image 5 - P8 position. Image 6 - P8.5 position. He has a FLW and intact LAFW in all those positions - his clubshaft never bypasses his left arm (from a rotational flipping perspective). How does he power his swing? I believe that he is a TGM-style swinger who powers his swing via a pivot-action and that it involves the sequential release of PA#4 => PA#2 => PA#3. When I follow the motion of his intact LAFW in space - it is like he is using his active pivot action to catapult his left arm forward across the front of his pivoting body (similar to throwing a frisbee back-handed or similar to performing a back-handed tennis stroke with the left arm). Note that his right wrist straightens between P6 and P8. Do you really believe that it's an active action and that it increases his swing power and therefore clubhead speed at impact? I would be interested in any "evidence" or even a simple logical explanation (based on golf swing mechanics/biomechanics) if any forum member harbors that belief. Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Nov 28, 2011 15:56:21 GMT -5
To be fair it is not Erik's belief on his own. It is something that he and the Golf Evolution staff have been socializing amongst themselves and then decided to put it on his forum for some comments from others. I doubt Erik would be the one to consider it his own belief. He is the one discussing it on the forum but only to provide clarification.
You have already attacked him on this topic on Ralph's blog in the comments section without any prior discussion on the topic so I doubt he will come here to discuss this with you, which is a shame because you do provide some good questions which might help to further define the theory.
In reading both Erik's post and what little information Brian has put out on the release they appear to be discussing something very similar. The use of the right wrist angle as a power source. I think they (TGE) view it as a an angle observed in the swing in a similar fashion as the flying wedges are observed. I am not an expert but that is my take.
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joec
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by joec on Nov 28, 2011 16:52:39 GMT -5
jeff, i will give you some evidence. it is not in mechanical or biomechanical terms though. i recently went to see brian manzella to learn about his toss out move. i was able to increase my clubhead speed with a six iron by nine miles per hour. that is EVIDENCE to me.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2011 17:36:21 GMT -5
mchepp,
I don't know if they are the same thing. BM states that there should be no "force-across-the-shaft" through impact, which means that any ACTIVE right wrist straightening action must cease prior to impact. I am not sure whether Erik believes that the right wrist straightening must be acive through impact in a slap hinge manner. If it is not active, then how can it produce increased swing power? Secondly, if it is active, then how does one prevent left wrist flipping through impact?
In that series of images that I posted, the golfer maintains a FLW and intact LAFW between P4 and P8, so how does any right wrist straightening increase swing power?
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2011 17:41:06 GMT -5
Joe,
It may be "evidence" to you, but it is meaningless to me. You could have increased clubhead speed due to "something" that you do during the out-toss maneuver that is causally unrelated to the actual out-toss maneuver.
I would need a rational explanation of why there is a difference and I would also need a "before" and "after" swing video to see if there are any visual differences.
Jeff.
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joec
Junior Member
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Post by joec on Nov 28, 2011 18:58:34 GMT -5
what you have requested will not be provided. that would be meaningless to me. i am satrisfied with my results. your opinion does not matter. no futher study is needed as far as i am concerned. i have my evidence.
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joec
Junior Member
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Post by joec on Nov 28, 2011 18:59:03 GMT -5
what you have requested will not be provided. that would be meaningless to me. i am satrisfied with my results. your opinion does not matter. no futher study is needed as far as i am concerned. i have my evidence.
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Post by mchepp on Nov 28, 2011 19:02:22 GMT -5
Again, I am not an expert, but as far as a golf swing goes for me, I do not have time within the 2 or so seconds that a golf swing takes to think that I will apply force until right before impact and then stop and apply no force. I am certain Brian has a different way of teaching it but I cannot imagine there is some thought process like apply then stop.
I also think that the Golf Evolution guys would not tell you to actively straighten the right wrist during the swing. They would likely want you to hold the right flying wedge (as most golfers have trouble with this). There is a picture inside the post that you linked showing someone using a hammer and the angle of the right wrist increases and decreases to apply power to the hammer. I believe this is their view of how PA#5 applies power in the golf swing.
Do you have a face on view of the golfer in this video? From there we can measure the right wrist angle to see how it has changed.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2011 19:29:41 GMT -5
Joe,
You wrote-: "i am satrisfied with my results. your opinion does not matter. no futher study is needed as far as i am concerned. i have my evidence."
OK.
However, if my opinion doesn't matter, then why did you originally address the post to me? Did you really believe that I would accept as "evidence" the fact that you increased clubhead speed by a certain amount based on your personal belief that is was causally due to performing BM's "out-toss" maneuver?
What am I supposed to conclude if some golfer told me that using the BM out-toss maneuver decreased his clubhead speed by 20%. I would reject that causal association - if he didn't explain why it decreased his clubhead speed and if he didn't definitively exclude other causes of a decreased clubhead speed.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2011 19:36:12 GMT -5
mchepp,
With a hammer, the right wrist palmar flexing action applies push pressure to the grip and it produces a hammering action.
So, if the right wrist straightens between P6 and P7, what does it do? Do you believe that it applies push-pressure to the left hand at PP#1 or the grip at PP#3? If it did apply push-pressure at those two points between P6 and P7 - how would that be beneficial?
Here is a face-on view?
Jeff.
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joec
Junior Member
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Post by joec on Nov 28, 2011 19:41:33 GMT -5
you asked for evidence. i gave my evidence. accept it or not. i am not changing my evidence.
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Post by mchepp on Nov 28, 2011 23:33:14 GMT -5
The question of where to apply the pressure is an excellent one. Sadly I am unsure, I could guess at PP#3 but that is only a guess. This is one of the reasons I thought it would be great if the Golf Evolution guys could discuss this topic with you. You very often ask excellent questions such as this one. As for the application of PA#5 because the video provided is not a true face on it is a bit from above and quite grainy I can only approximate the angle. I have included the picture here. To be fair I might not be completely accurate in my assumptions. The images from the original post are much better. Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 29, 2011 0:05:30 GMT -5
mchepp, I am not sue what you are trying to demonstrate with your measured angles. I don't have to measure any right wrist angles to know that the right wrist straightens/flattens (palmar flexes) between P6 and P7. It's incontestable. However, how can that increase swing power? In a swinger, the club is releasing between P6 and P7 due to a CF-action (actually according to the mathematical principle explained by nm golfer). It doesn't require any releasing power from a straightening right wrist. Think of simple human biomechanics and simple physics. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's late downswing (between P6 and P7). His clubhead speed at impact is 145mph. Let's presume that his clubhead speed at P6 is 70mph (that's a pure guess). Can you imagine how fast his clubshaft is moving between P6 and P7? Do you think that he can get the clubshaft to move faster because his right wrist straightens by a finite amount between P6 and P7? I personally believe that's humanly impossible? If you can provide any "evidence" to the contrary, I will consider it studiously. Also, there is the problem of synchrony. If the right wrist could really straighten faster than the clubshaft is moving forward, then it would disrupt the smooth release of the club, which would be disadvantageous. It is my personal belief that a skilled golfer (swinger) who releases his PAs (4 => 2=> 3) with maximum efficiency needs the right arm/wrist to straighten superfast just so that the right hand can keep up with the left hand. Consider Rickie Fowler's swing. His swing action is super-efficient and he releases his left arm and therefore left hand super-fast through the impact zone. Note how straight his right arm and right wrist is in image 6. He has to actively straighten his right arm/wrist superfast to get his right hand to reach the grip, which is now on the left side of his body - due to the fact that he is using a full roll hand release action, which rotates the FLW counterclockwise. Here is a DTL video. Here are capture images. Look where his left hand is situated in image 3 - it is far to the left due to the fact that it has rolled counterclockwise. Look how far his right hand has to stretch just to reach his left hand/grip. I think that any right wrist straightening action is passive in a swinger - and that it doesn't make the club move faster. Try a simple experiment - perform a backhanded tennis shot with your left hand and swing your left hand as fast as possible between P7 and P8 as shown in this demo. Imagine that your racquet is moving super-fast between P7 (image 2) and P8 (image 3). Now repeat that experiment while placing your right palm against the aft side of the racquet's grip, and try to keep the palm against the aft side of the grip between P7 and P8. You should find that it is impossible if you pull your racquet superfast between P7 and P8. Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Nov 29, 2011 13:59:09 GMT -5
Sadly, I am not an expert in applying power in the golf swing. If I were or I could generate 145mph of clubhead speed I would not be in this forum or any golf forum for that matter because I would hit the ball plenty far and would have little need to research much on how to improve. I don't know which muscles or which arm is applying power in Jamie's swing, not a clue, considering the speed though I doubt it is like a racket as you have demonstrated, he has to generate more speed than that. I believe he is using both arms, legs, and core to achieve those speeds.
The way I view PA#5 is that it is an "additional" potential source of power. A compliment to PA#2 and PA#3. Both 2 and 3 are important and critical but there is another potential source in the right wrist. How does one apply it? I do not know, I would guess that we would have to take a lesson from the Golf Evolution to find out. For me it would probably not be a part of a lesson because I have trouble keeping my flying wedges and I flip.
I am sorry I cannot provide much more information.
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