Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 13, 2013 21:09:33 GMT -5
See this 3jack forum thread.
richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teacherfolder&action=display&thread=4022
This is the swingengineer's (SE) explanation of PA#3.
www.theswingengineer.com/3rd_Accumulator.html
mchepp thinks that it's the best definition of PA#3 that he has seen.
Amazing!
The SE's definition is obviously wrong. He states-: "For a start, it’s an accumulator that doesn’t accumulate. It works by maintaining its “in line” condition.(1) Then he quotes HK -: That “in line” condition, in Mr Kelley’s words, is where “...the entire left arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the left hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane- the plane of the left wristcock motion.”(2)
If a PA doesn't doesn't accumulate then it cannot contribute to swing power. However, PA#3 works as a PA by accumulating power in the backswing by rotating the entire LAFW clockwise around its longitudinal axis, and it then releases that power by rotating the entire LAFW counterclockwise during the release swivel action that happens between P6.5 and P7.
The SE also stated-: "Because the third accumulator’s role is to provide motion to the Secondary Lever Assembly, all rotation is around the axis of the left wrist." That's wrong! There is no such entity as a left wrist axis when it comes to the LAFW. There is only the axis of the intact LAFW which runs down the length of the primary lever assembly, and any rotation of the secondary lever (clubshaft) is due to rotation of the straight left arm in the left shoulder socket when the entire LAFW rotates as an unit.
The SE also stated-: "The Pressure Point for the Third Power Accumulator is located at “the first joint of the right hand index finger where it touches the Clubshaft”.(7) This is where you feel the right hand pushing the clubshaft around the axis of the left wrist."
Nonsense!
There is no such thing as a left wrist axis. Also, push-pressure applied at PP#3 (by a straightening right arm) will disrupt the LAFW and induce flipping if push-pressure if applied on the aft side of the grip by the right index finger. If one wants to use the right arm to help rotate the entire LAFW about its longitudinal axis during the release swivel action, then the straightening right arm must apply push-pressure at PP#1 in a rotary fashion. If push-pressure is applied at PP#1 in a non-rotary fashion, then it will increase the speed of release of PA#4, and not PA#3.
In the last paragraph of his description, the SE tries to show that the power released by PA#3 increases when one has a greater accumulator #3 angle. He then states-: "This is due to the fact the further the clubhead is away from the centre of rotation, the further it has to travel in order to maintain the same RPM as the left wrist.".
That's correct, which proves that PA#3 can accumulate and release power.
In the 3jack forum, the SE stated in response to Tapio-: "If I'm right in understanding what you're saying, I completely agree with you. You certainly don't have to actively rotate your wrists anti-clockwise through impact to bring the clubface to the ball. You can, as I think you've implied, rely on the anti-clockwise turning of the shoulders to do this for you.However, this second way of doing it, without the active forearm rotation, isn't the 3PA. They may look the same but they're not. I'll explain why...
Mr Kelley states in 7-4; "It may appear that some of the Accumulators omitted from some combinations are still actually present in the action. But their participation is negligible, incidental or minimal."
If your wrists are passive and are only being rotated* through impact by the pivot pushing the whole of your left arm through impact, then that 3PA motion is incidental. That's to say you're not actively controlling the Secondary Lever Assembly, you're controlling the Primary Lever Assembly, and that happens to be affecting the Secondary Lever Assembly.
As an aside, this "passive wrists 3PA" is actually the 4PA. The turning shoulders pushing the left arm through impact.
Those three bold-highlighted statements are incorrect.
If the LAFW rotates about its longitudinal axis between P6.5 and P7, then that rotation represents the release of PA#3 - whether it is active or passive. If the LAFW doesn't rotate about its longitudinal axis during a torso rotation (shoulder socket rotation ) that rotates the FLW counterclockwise, then obviously there is no release of PA#3 because the LAFW must rotate about is own longitudinal axis (independent of torso rotation). This scenario doesn't happen in a "real life" full golf swing if a golfer adopts a neutral left hand grip at address - even though Tapio continues to believe that fact.
To claim that passive wrist PA#3 is actually PA#4 is insane! The release of PA#4 doesn't involve any rotation of the LAFW about its longitudinal axis because it's due to a left arm abduction phenomenon. There is no rotation of the intact LAFW around its longitudinal axis if the downswing's left arm abduction action is a pure left arm abduction phenomenon (eg. Jamie Sadlowski's swing where he doesn't rotate the LAFW between P4 and P7), but if there is some rotation of the LAFW about its longitudinal axis between P6.5 and P7 due to a left forearm supinatory motion, then that represents a PA#3 release action - whether it is active or passive.
Jeff.
richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teacherfolder&action=display&thread=4022
This is the swingengineer's (SE) explanation of PA#3.
www.theswingengineer.com/3rd_Accumulator.html
mchepp thinks that it's the best definition of PA#3 that he has seen.
Amazing!
The SE's definition is obviously wrong. He states-: "For a start, it’s an accumulator that doesn’t accumulate. It works by maintaining its “in line” condition.(1) Then he quotes HK -: That “in line” condition, in Mr Kelley’s words, is where “...the entire left arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the left hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane- the plane of the left wristcock motion.”(2)
If a PA doesn't doesn't accumulate then it cannot contribute to swing power. However, PA#3 works as a PA by accumulating power in the backswing by rotating the entire LAFW clockwise around its longitudinal axis, and it then releases that power by rotating the entire LAFW counterclockwise during the release swivel action that happens between P6.5 and P7.
The SE also stated-: "Because the third accumulator’s role is to provide motion to the Secondary Lever Assembly, all rotation is around the axis of the left wrist." That's wrong! There is no such entity as a left wrist axis when it comes to the LAFW. There is only the axis of the intact LAFW which runs down the length of the primary lever assembly, and any rotation of the secondary lever (clubshaft) is due to rotation of the straight left arm in the left shoulder socket when the entire LAFW rotates as an unit.
The SE also stated-: "The Pressure Point for the Third Power Accumulator is located at “the first joint of the right hand index finger where it touches the Clubshaft”.(7) This is where you feel the right hand pushing the clubshaft around the axis of the left wrist."
Nonsense!
There is no such thing as a left wrist axis. Also, push-pressure applied at PP#3 (by a straightening right arm) will disrupt the LAFW and induce flipping if push-pressure if applied on the aft side of the grip by the right index finger. If one wants to use the right arm to help rotate the entire LAFW about its longitudinal axis during the release swivel action, then the straightening right arm must apply push-pressure at PP#1 in a rotary fashion. If push-pressure is applied at PP#1 in a non-rotary fashion, then it will increase the speed of release of PA#4, and not PA#3.
In the last paragraph of his description, the SE tries to show that the power released by PA#3 increases when one has a greater accumulator #3 angle. He then states-: "This is due to the fact the further the clubhead is away from the centre of rotation, the further it has to travel in order to maintain the same RPM as the left wrist.".
That's correct, which proves that PA#3 can accumulate and release power.
In the 3jack forum, the SE stated in response to Tapio-: "If I'm right in understanding what you're saying, I completely agree with you. You certainly don't have to actively rotate your wrists anti-clockwise through impact to bring the clubface to the ball. You can, as I think you've implied, rely on the anti-clockwise turning of the shoulders to do this for you.However, this second way of doing it, without the active forearm rotation, isn't the 3PA. They may look the same but they're not. I'll explain why...
Mr Kelley states in 7-4; "It may appear that some of the Accumulators omitted from some combinations are still actually present in the action. But their participation is negligible, incidental or minimal."
If your wrists are passive and are only being rotated* through impact by the pivot pushing the whole of your left arm through impact, then that 3PA motion is incidental. That's to say you're not actively controlling the Secondary Lever Assembly, you're controlling the Primary Lever Assembly, and that happens to be affecting the Secondary Lever Assembly.
As an aside, this "passive wrists 3PA" is actually the 4PA. The turning shoulders pushing the left arm through impact.
Those three bold-highlighted statements are incorrect.
If the LAFW rotates about its longitudinal axis between P6.5 and P7, then that rotation represents the release of PA#3 - whether it is active or passive. If the LAFW doesn't rotate about its longitudinal axis during a torso rotation (shoulder socket rotation ) that rotates the FLW counterclockwise, then obviously there is no release of PA#3 because the LAFW must rotate about is own longitudinal axis (independent of torso rotation). This scenario doesn't happen in a "real life" full golf swing if a golfer adopts a neutral left hand grip at address - even though Tapio continues to believe that fact.
To claim that passive wrist PA#3 is actually PA#4 is insane! The release of PA#4 doesn't involve any rotation of the LAFW about its longitudinal axis because it's due to a left arm abduction phenomenon. There is no rotation of the intact LAFW around its longitudinal axis if the downswing's left arm abduction action is a pure left arm abduction phenomenon (eg. Jamie Sadlowski's swing where he doesn't rotate the LAFW between P4 and P7), but if there is some rotation of the LAFW about its longitudinal axis between P6.5 and P7 due to a left forearm supinatory motion, then that represents a PA#3 release action - whether it is active or passive.
Jeff.