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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 1:07:10 GMT -5
ej20 wrote the following in the BM-forum.
"Tumble is the act of steepening the club on the downswing.It is a necessary motion to get leftward pointing divots. It can help those who get too far underplane."
Why would a golfer want to have leftward pointing divots (relative to the baseline of the inclined plane)?
I am still waiting to see a swing video of a tumble action - where a golfer steepens the clubshaft in the downswing.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 8, 2010 5:11:33 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 10:17:46 GMT -5
Natep,
I don't see any steepening of the clubshaft at the start of the downswing in those videos.
If you believe that you can see clubshaft steepening, please explain the biomechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 8, 2010 10:31:41 GMT -5
I do not understand the tumble action at all. I thought I did with the Manzella video on YouTube where he talks about it. He calls a 'laid off' motion of the shaft in the downswing a 'reverse tumble', so the tumble is the same motion, just in the opposite direction. But when I did a blog post on that, one of his instructors said I was wrong. Go figure.
Leftward pointing divots are easy to see why. If you want to hit the ball straight at the target and you are hitting down on the ball, the HSP needs to be left of the target. The HSP is defined as the bottom arc. The divot is the bottom arc.
But i don't think it's going to go way left. According to Trackman, if you have a 60* VSP (which is more or less a standard looking downswing plane), you need to have the HSP be 1/2 of the Attack Angle in order to square up the path.
The average PGA Tour golf has an attack angle of about -4* with a 7-iron. So the HSP would need to be approximately -2* in order to square up the path. I'd guess that a divot going 2* left of the target is somewhat noticeable as far as its direction. But it won't look like it's going well left of the target.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 10:40:01 GMT -5
3jack,
That's why I specified baseline of the inclined plane (HSP), and not target.
Secondly, even if the HSP is shifted 2 degrees left, the first half of the divot represents the clubhead still moving outwards toward low point. That means that the first half of the divot is between 0-2 degrees leftwards relative to the target, but slightly rightwards relative to the HSP.
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 8, 2010 10:43:52 GMT -5
3jack, That's why I specified baseline of the inclined plane (HSP), and not target. Secondly, even if the HSP is shifted 2 degrees left, the first half of the divot represents the clubhead still moving outwards toward low point. That means that the first half of the divot is between 0-2 degrees leftwards relative to the target, but slightly rightwards relative to the HSP. Jeff. I agree. With regards to the tumble action, I think Brian prefers a more vertical VSP (or downswing plane) so the golfer doesn't have to swing as far left. I think the counter to that is that the handle will likely be higher at impact and thus the closure rate will increase. 3JACK
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Post by natep on Dec 8, 2010 13:45:59 GMT -5
Jeff,
In you first post you said:
"I am still waiting to see a swing video of a tumble action - where a golfer steepens the clubshaft in the downswing."
I posted the videos, but now you've changed your statement to:
"I don't see any steepening of the clubshaft at the start of the downswing in those videos.
Why is there this requirement of yours that the shaft now needs to be seen to steepen in the START of the downswing?
I can't speak for Brian, but it would be my guess that the "tumble move" would be a possible prescription for someone who over-rotates the LAFW, such as SG and PC in the videos I linked above, and would not be advised for someone who had the LAFW on plane. Siince most good players who over-rotate the LAFW (lay it off), seem to do it during the transition, it will be difficult to find video of an accomplished player who starts "tumbling" immediately at the start of the downswing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 18:16:01 GMT -5
Natep,
Although I stated "start" (because that was where I presumed the tumble action happens), I will rephrase it and state that I have never seen any golfer steepen the clubshaft between the end-backswing position and the 3rd parallel (delivery position) - unless they come OTT.
I cannot see any shaft steepening in SG's and PC's swings.
By the way, if a golfer performs an end-backswing swivel action that rotates the LAFW off the inclined plane, then the LAFW has to get back to the inclined plane at the start of the downswing, and I do not regard that action as a tumble action.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 8, 2010 19:28:38 GMT -5
Ok.
I don't know what the tumble action is precisely, but I assume it's getting the LAFW back on plane from a laid off position. In the "non-debate" Brian said that if the LAFW was on plane then one would only be applying a "tumble torque" to prevent the LAFW from shallowing out at the top of the backswing, so I have concluded that the actual tumble or steepening is only required when the LAFW gets laid off. I agree that a steepening of an on plane LAFW would indicate an OTT swing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 22:20:19 GMT -5
Brian has often stated in the past that all golfers use a tumble action - and not only golfers who lay the club-off at the end-backswing position. That's why I remain confused/unimpressed by the idea of a tumble action.
Jeff.
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Post by ringer on Dec 9, 2010 11:28:09 GMT -5
I do not understand the tumble action at all. I thought I did with the Manzella video on YouTube where he talks about it. He calls a 'laid off' motion of the shaft in the downswing a 'reverse tumble', so the tumble is the same motion, just in the opposite direction. But when I did a blog post on that, one of his instructors said I was wrong. Go figure. Leftward pointing divots are easy to see why. If you want to hit the ball straight at the target and you are hitting down on the ball, the HSP needs to be left of the target. The HSP is defined as the bottom arc. The divot is the bottom arc. But i don't think it's going to go way left. According to Trackman, if you have a 60* VSP (which is more or less a standard looking downswing plane), you need to have the HSP be 1/2 of the Attack Angle in order to square up the path. The average PGA Tour golf has an attack angle of about -4* with a 7-iron. So the HSP would need to be approximately -2* in order to square up the path. I'd guess that a divot going 2* left of the target is somewhat noticeable as far as its direction. But it won't look like it's going well left of the target. 3JACK Richie, I think this problem has more to do with some over-zealousness of certain people who follow Brian. Everyone is wrong because you aren't one of them. Not everyone in his camp holds this view, but there are some which unfortunately cause some disarray.
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Post by ringer on Dec 9, 2010 11:30:12 GMT -5
Brian has often stated in the past that all golfers use a tumble action - and not only golfers who lay the club-off at the end-backswing position. That's why I remain confused/unimpressed by the idea of a tumble action. Jeff. Jeff I broke it down in one of my video's to just the rotation of the upper left arm or the lower left arm. At some point they both rotate before impact. It can be late or early but clearly the left arm must rotate IF the grip is neutral. A strong grip like that of Paul Azinger would permit no such tumble.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 12:16:47 GMT -5
Ringer - when you state "early" what do you mean by "early"? When in the downswing would that happen?
Can you demonstrate that visually?
Jeff.
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Post by ringer on Dec 9, 2010 12:31:48 GMT -5
Ringer - when you state "early" what do you mean by "early"? When in the downswing would that happen? Can you demonstrate that visually? Jeff. Shouldn't be any need to. If you are changing the direction your elbow is pointing to be more pointed at your rib cage , you are "tumbling". One could point the elbow out for an extended length of time, and those with a strong grip would almost have to. But if you have a neutral grip, it is very difficult to rotate the clubface closed with just your forearm. We generally do it with both our upper and lower left arm rotating. (We could also perform this with a right handed action but that's for a different thread)
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 12:46:22 GMT -5
Ringer,
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I think that my question about what you mean by "early" is still applicable.
Jeff.
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