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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 0:20:47 GMT -5
Post by wedgey on Dec 10, 2010 0:20:47 GMT -5
I did that and can see what you are saying and i agree. I don't know if he is hitting a draw as i would need to have a trackman or be there in person...lol. It's a bit confusing with these still pics., and the varying camera angles.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 0:33:36 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 0:33:36 GMT -5
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 1:02:54 GMT -5
Post by wedgey on Dec 10, 2010 1:02:54 GMT -5
I looked at the video and it looks like he was hitting it pretty straight with both the driver and iron, although you couldn't see where the ball ended up. Is this a newer swing video of his or older?
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 1:10:44 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 1:10:44 GMT -5
This is his old swing.
You can see where the ball goes if you use the V1 Home swing analyser program - advancing the video at a very slow speed.
Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 1:56:55 GMT -5
Post by wedgey on Dec 10, 2010 1:56:55 GMT -5
This is his old swing. You can see where the ball goes if you use the V1 Home swing analyser program - advancing the video at a very slow speed. Jeff. I think he needs to go back to that swing if he can or maybe he's trying to, i haven't seen much of Badds latetly on t.v. Do you know if he has recovered from his experiment with S&T?
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 12:54:22 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 10, 2010 12:54:22 GMT -5
Checkpoint 3 (image 3) - when the left hand has reached a position below waist level, the left hand should be on the elbow plane. The butt end of the clubshaft should point at the ball-target line indicating that the clubshaft is on-plane. The clubshaft should appear in-line with the right forearm. I'm confused by this, is or should the yellow dotted line be pointing to the right of where it appears in the pics? Anyways if you extend the red line in pic 3 of Ringers and left the yellow dotted lines in the pic. doesn't the red line of Ringers intersect with the yellow dotted lines therefore the butt of the club would be pointing at the baseline/target line? Could you both be right but are saying different things? In other words the baseline/target line is pointing right just that the camera angle is off but the butt of the club is still pointing at it. Wedgey, you can take ANY swing, position the camera a little to the right of their swing plane, and achieve this supposed "elbow plane at delivery" position. ANY swing. It's the camera, not the player.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 13:14:41 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 13:14:41 GMT -5
Ringer wrote-: "Wedgey, you can take ANY swing, position the camera a little to the right of their swing plane, and achieve this supposed "elbow plane at delivery" position. ANY swing. It's the camera, not the player." I respectfully disagree. I think that it is the player, and not the camera. If a golfer gets his clubshaft inline with his right forearm - as demonstrated in image 3 of the AB photo, then his clubshaft is on, or very near, the elbow plane - irrespective of the camera angle. Here is Phil Mickelson coming down the TSP. In image 4, his clubshaft is well above his left forearm, and not inline, and that is because his clubshaft is on the TSP and not the elbow plane. One would have to move the camera angle well to the left of the ball-target line to get the clubshaft to be superimposed on his left forearm. Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 13:33:08 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 10, 2010 13:33:08 GMT -5
Ringer, You are free to believe that Badds is swinging to the right of the target. I prefer to believe that his clubhead arc is symmetrical to the inclined plane, and the fact that the downswing and followthorugh arcs are not superimposed is due to the camera angle. You also stated-: "And I am not even "misquoting" Jeff or lying about what he said. I am taking quotes directly off of this thread and his website. He has said repeatedly that AB is swinging on the SAME PLANE." I have never stated that AB is swinging on the same plane. He shifts planes from the TSP to the elbow plane in the downswing. While he is shifting planes - he is "on plane". The yellow dotted line represents the ball-target line and base of the inclined plane. I think that Badds club's butt points at that line, which means that he is "on plane". Jeff. Jeff, we could theoretically take any line drawn from the shaft and say it's on plane if we cut it at the right place. But that's not what determines whether it's on plane or not. If the camera is properly positioned, the butt end of the club will be pointing at the ball or target. Never anywhere else. That's the whole point. You are completely guessing that he's pointing ahead of the ball in the location you speak of. You can't tell because the camera lens is not on plane. If the camera lens was properly positioned precisely to his plane then the shaft would always point to the ball or target. FWIW, I know not too many people care to think this is evidence, but your yellow line isn't where the ball goes either. Nor is it anywhere near his target. Here is the actual trajectory compared to your baseline. Furthermore, your baseline isn't anywhere near where the shaft on the ground is pointing. Mine on the left, yours on the right. I assume he is hitting a draw because of the inside path your own path tracking picture shows plus his stance aiming out to the right. He is aimed WAY to the right, swinging to the right, and the ball is starting left. The reason the ball starts to the left is because his clubface is closed relative to his path. Your baseline assumptions have no basis in fact. I have several pictures that don't use conjecture but provable points. His stance is to the right, his swing is to the right, the ball is starting left of his swing path and will curve back. The only thing we can say is the swing is flattening out and slowly going out more to the right as he approaches impact. That may be why he in fact changed swings!! Going from very much on plane until reaching the delivery position where his club is way flat and under plane. Seems like a really good reason to change to me.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 13:52:02 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 10, 2010 13:52:02 GMT -5
Ringer wrote-: "Wedgey, you can take ANY swing, position the camera a little to the right of their swing plane, and achieve this supposed "elbow plane at delivery" position. ANY swing. It's the camera, not the player." I respectfully disagree. I think that it is the player, and not the camera. If a golfer gets his clubshaft inline with his right forearm - as demonstrated in image 3 of the AB photo, then his clubshaft is on, or very near, the elbow plane - irrespective of the camera angle. Here is Phil Mickelson coming down the TSP. In image 4, his clubshaft is well above his left forearm, and not inline, and that is because his clubshaft is on the TSP and not the elbow plane. One would have to move the camera angle well to the left of the ball-target line to get the clubshaft to be superimposed on his left forearm. Jeff. Jeff, Mickleson's swing sequence isn't even comparable! Where is the delivery position? Where is 4.5 Jeff? Not only that, you are using a completely different camera angle. The camera could be anywhere. Move the camera out more the the left of Mickelson and you'll magically get him on the elbow plane. Compare the stance of Mickelson and the stance of Aaron.... The camera for Aaron is placed ABOVE the plane. Because he's swinging inside-out relative to the camera. The camera for Mickelson is placed UNDER the plane. Because he's swinging outside-in relative to the camera. Assuming the cameras are perfectly aligned between the player and the target, Aaron is hitting a DRAW while Mickelson is hitting a FADE. Their planes are purposefully going away from the target. Neither of them are trying to hit a straight shot. They're in fact hitting complete opposite shots. I don't know how people can continue to believe the camera angle has so little to do with the perception of planes.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 14:03:24 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 10, 2010 14:03:24 GMT -5
Hmmm... here's a picture of Phil on the "elbow plane" suddenly. Notice all that is different is the position of the camera relative to Mickelson's alignment. Again.. I can make ANYONE look like they're on the elbow plane at this point of the golf swing. Just move the camera.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 17:27:24 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 17:27:24 GMT -5
Ringer, I first followed his ball flight using a swing analyser program - advancing one frame at a time. The ball flight was straight. You can see the ball in image 2. I then re-drew the yellow dotted line so that it follows the straight ball flight. That yellow dotted line is parallel to that metal tube that he has placed on the ground. I still think that the butt end of his club is pointing at point X, which is on the ball-target line - although I concede that this "mental projection" is very inexact. I think that there is no evidence that his ball flight is a draw. The fact that his feet are closed to the ball-target line doesn't mean that he is hitting a draw. I think that his pelvis/shoulders are parallel to the ball-target line. You also wrote-: "He is aimed WAY to the right, swinging to the right, and the ball is starting left. The reason the ball starts to the left is because his clubface is closed relative to his path." If that were true, then the ball should curve significantly more to the left later in its flight, after starting left, because the clubhead path is rightwards relative to the clubface orientation angle. It doesn't do that - follow the ball flight.Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 18:24:17 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 10, 2010 18:24:17 GMT -5
Ringer, I first followed his ball flight using a swing analyser program - advancing one frame at a time. The ball flight was straight. You can see the ball in image 2. That is exactly what I did with my initial trajectory line. Yes, I see that you redrew the line in later pictures. So the path of the clubhead approaching the ball from the inside and exiting on the outside half of the ball in your own picture doesn't indicate to you that the path was from inside to out? Photographic proof that you yourself created, and you don't even believe it. Jeff, we don't see enough of his flight to know how it curved. You're assuming it went straight because the first 100 feet it came off straight. Unless it's a duck hook you aren't going to see visible curve until well after this. What about all the other evidence I've shown? Here's side by side pictures of Phil... one on the TSP and another on the EP. But he was just your poster boy for a TSP swinger. How does he get to the EP then Jeff? I know it's difficult to accept when your entire website is based on this one swing of Aaron Baddley's. It means revamping everything that references it and that makes for more time than you're probably willing to dedicate toward it. It's even harder when your theory is that there is a plane shift when in Mickelson's swing there appears to be one when there clearly isn't. It's camera trickery. But the fact is you are just plain wrong. He's aimed to the right, his path is out to the right, the ball is starting left of his path, and like 90% of PGA tour shots he's hitting a curved shot on purpose.
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Planes
Dec 10, 2010 22:21:30 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 22:21:30 GMT -5
Ringer, You wrote-: "So the path of the clubhead approaching the ball from the inside and exiting on the outside half of the ball in your own picture doesn't indicate to you that the path was from inside to out?" Of course not. You are obviously clueless about how a swing analyser's spline tool works. That curved arc is simply a curve between two points that you click on when tracing the clubhead's arc through space - the program draws the curve according to an algorithm. It's an extremely crude tool and it produces an arced path that is only roughly representative of the true clubhead arc. It is also limited by the fact that it is trying to represent a 3-D arced movement on a two-plane surface. You also wrote-: "Jeff, we don't see enough of his flight to know how it curved. You're assuming it went straight because the first 100 feet it came off straight. Unless it's a duck hook you aren't going to see visible curve until well after this." I can see the ball flight for much longer than 33 yards. I can clearly see the ball's flight for >100 yards when using my swing analyser program. I don't think that PM's club is on the elbow plane in the 2nd image. It is a few inches above his forearm, and an extension line drawn along the longitudinal axis of his shaft exits his mid-back. If one compares that to AB's 3rd image when his hands are near the delivery position - the clubshaft is on a flatter plane and an extension line drawn through the longitudinal axis of his clubshaft exits his low back. Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 11, 2010 1:46:08 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 11, 2010 1:46:08 GMT -5
Ringer, You wrote-: "So the path of the clubhead approaching the ball from the inside and exiting on the outside half of the ball in your own picture doesn't indicate to you that the path was from inside to out?" Of course not. You are obviously clueless about how a swing analyser's spline tool works. That curved arc is simply a curve between two points that you click on when tracing the clubhead's arc through space - the program draws the curve according to an algorithm. It's an extremely crude tool and it produces an arced path that is only roughly representative of the true clubhead arc. It is also limited by the fact that it is trying to represent a 3-D arced movement on a two-plane surface. Yet you are sooooo willing to base your entire theory on 2-D geometry with the same 3-D limitations. Ironic how you're trying to blow up my argument by telling me cameras and line drawing are inaccurate when my whole point is that cameras and line drawing is inaccurate. Well excuse me for underestimating your analyzer program. I'm sure that 5 yard draw really shows up in the first 100 yards of ball flight. Wow. Your argument is really that Phil's just an inch or two above his elbow and therefore not any flatter at all? You're just going to completely ignore the fact that his plane looks WAY flatter in the right side image than it does in the left side image? I'm pretty sure everyone looking at that picture can see how the camera placement of the left picture makes it appear that the shaft is dissecting his shoulder, but the camera placement of the pictured on the right makes it appear that the shaft is almost at his elbow plane. Same exact guy making the same swing with the same club. Only thing that's changed is the camera position. That's it. Phil hasn't suddenly made some sort of dramatic plane shift between tournaments. If the camera used was able to capture the image just .005 seconds after that I'm sure it would have been exactly up his elbow Jeff. Just live with it. It's the camera, not the player.
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Planes
Dec 11, 2010 10:18:06 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2010 10:18:06 GMT -5
Ringer, You need to perform a test using a Smartstick. Trace a SPL using the Smartstick and video it from DTL, and then show me where the club is positioned at different time points during the downswing. You are free to believe that Badds is not "on plane" and that he is swinging out-to-the-right. I will no longer waste my time debating this issue. Addendum added later: Regarding this comparison photo of PM - of course the difference is due to differences in camera angle. I don't dispute the fact that the camera angle distorts one's perspective of where exactly the clubshaft is located at any time point in the mid-downswing. However, Ringer is implying that Badds doesn't shift planes in his swing. That's plainly ridiculous. Here is Badd's swing. If any forum member doesn't believe that Badds is shifting planes from the hand plane => TSP in the backswing, and from the TSP => elbow plane in the downswing, then he is mentally perceiving reality very differently to me. Jeff.
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