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Post by natep on Dec 8, 2010 20:21:25 GMT -5
What are you guys' opinions on when and how the right elbow straightens on the downswing.
Should it start straightening immediately, or should the straightening be delayed?
What are some of the consequences, if any, of a right elbow extending either too early or too late?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 22:54:57 GMT -5
The timing of the right elbow straightening action has a major effect on the timing of the club release action. When the right elbow straightens, then a golfer is forced to release the club - even if the CF-induced release phenomenon is not inducing the club to release at that time point. Consider an example - Lindsay Gahm, BM's premier golf student. She uses a sweep release as her natural release. Why? The answer is because she straightens her right elbow very soon in the downswing. Note that she has already released the club before she gets to the delivery position. The reason is primarily related to the fact that she straightens her right elbow in the early phase of her mid-downswing. Why? I think that it relates to her pivot dynamics. Note that her right shoulder is still very high - in fact, it is still higher than her left shoulder. She also has closed shoulders. Those two facts cause her right elbow to straighten earlier than normal. As a comparison, consider Badds. Note that he still has a bent right elbow in image 1, and note that it only straightens in image 2. That represents a random release pattern. To use a random release pattern, the right shoulder has to be lower, and the right elbow has to be adducted closer to the right hip, in order to delay the right elbow straightening action and produce a random release. Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 8, 2010 23:15:28 GMT -5
Do you think an early right elbow extension and level shoulders would always result in a sweep release?
BTW, I'm not sure if she has released the club in pic 1. It looks like she may use a very short left thumb grip which increases the angle between her left arm and clubshaft to ~135 degrees when her left wrist is in radial flexion. In other words, the angle seen in pic 1 looks constant throughout her swing, as opposed to being ~90 degrees at the top and then increasing to ~135 degrees at delivery.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 23:44:39 GMT -5
Natep,
She has released the club at that time point.
Note that she acquires a ~90 degree left arm-clubshaft angle at her end-backswing position - time point 0.07 minutes. At that time point her right elbow is more bent.
Note that the club release starts at ~0.09 minutes - in her early downswing, when her right elbow is high above her right hip area, and when her right elbow starts to straighten. Her left arm-clubshaft angle has widened between 0.08 minutes and 0.09 minutes.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 0:01:11 GMT -5
Perhaps, but I'm still not certain.
I think part of the ~90 degree look at the top is the result of looking face-on horizontally to an inclined plane. Much the same way that a person with a flatter backswing could appear to have a 45 degree left arm-clubshaft angle at the top from this view, while actually only having a ~90 degree angle.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 0:34:07 GMT -5
Natep, It may not be ~90 degrees, It may be 100 degrees. See the DTL view - at 0.21 minutes. All I know is that she is widening that left arm-clubshaft angle during her sweep release action, when that angle becomes ~130 degrees by the early phase of her mid-downswing. Addendum: I have demonstrated her release sequence using my swing analysis program. If you do not believe that is releasing the club in the early phase of the mid-downswing - based on these photos, then I cannot present better evidence. Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 0:54:40 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. I didnt see the dtl view at first.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 1:12:56 GMT -5
Another interesting point about LG's downswing. Note that she has squared her pelvis, but that doesn't pull her right elbow down to right hip level - as demonstrated by Ben Hogan in this posed photo. To mimic Hogan's position, one has to lower the right shoulder and actively adduct the right elbow - while the hips are squaring as result of the pelvis shift-rotation movement that starts the downswing action. LG is not performing those two actions. It doesn't happen automatically - as Hogan implied. Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 1:39:32 GMT -5
Interesting.
Do you believe that Hogan's right shoulder is adducted at the top of his backswing? I cant tell from the photo.
If so, do you believe he accomplishes this active right elbow adduction and shoulder lowering with an abduction of the right shoulder?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 1:55:33 GMT -5
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 2:00:54 GMT -5
Ok I was using adduction instead of retraction, and abduction instead of protraction. So I will restate my question:
Do you believe that Hogan's right shoulder is retracted at the top of his backswing? I cant tell from the photo.
If so, do you believe he accomplishes this active right elbow adduction and shoulder lowering with an protraction of the right shoulder?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 2:05:09 GMT -5
Natep,
I think that Hogan's right shoulder socket is retracted at his end-backswing position. During the downswing, his right shoulder socket becomes protracted, but also depressed. That helps move the right shoulder downwards towards the right hip area.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 2:12:31 GMT -5
I understand.
It's difficult to determine if Hogan's right shoulder is retracted or not. Lindsay's is easily seen to be.
Do you then believe that one has to actively depress and protract the right shoulder in order to achieve a pitch elbow position a la Hogan, and that a passive right shoulder in the downswing would lend itself to a punch elbow position?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 2:40:24 GMT -5
Natep,
You asked-: "Do you then believe that one has to actively depress and protract the right shoulder in order to achieve a pitch elbow position a la Hogan, and that a passive right shoulder in the downswing would lend itself to a punch elbow position?"
Yes.
However, there is also a difference in the right upper arm motion when a golfer uses a punch elbow motion rather than a pitch elbow motion. Hogan is adducting his right upper arm, but he is also externally rotating his right humerus while he adducts his right humerus. In a punch elbow motion, one adducts the right humerus without externally rotating the right humerus as much during the adduction action.
Jeff.
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Post by teddyirons on Dec 9, 2010 8:32:05 GMT -5
Another interesting point about LG's downswing. Note that she has squared her pelvis, but that doesn't pull her right elbow down to right hip level - as demonstrated by Ben Hogan in this posed photo. To mimic Hogan's position, one has to lower the right shoulder and actively adduct the right elbow - while the hips are squaring as result of the pelvis shift-rotation movement that starts the downswing action. LG is not performing those two actions. It doesn't happen automatically - as Hogan implied. Jeff. I think the right elbow can adduct automatically as Hogan says, and in fact is a far better way of getting the right elbow tucked into body in the early downswing. If at the top of the swing we have kept our hands in front of our upper body, then we have a gap under our left armpit. If our first move down through transition is to square our hips while keeping our hands back in their top-of-backswing position, we close the gap under our left armpit. When we do this, our right elbow has no choice but to adduct, but it is adducting passively.
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