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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 11:08:59 GMT -5
The most ridiculous part of BM's Anti-Summit presentation was the part when the "experts" discussed hinging actions. Here is Aaron Zick demonstrating angled hinging. He claimed that when a golfer uses angled hinging, that he keeps the clubface square to the clubhead arc through impact (from well before impact to well after impact). He had difficulty explaining a horizontal hinging action. He stated that it involves a rotation around an imaginary vertical axis. He demonstrated horizontal hinging with his hands. He stated that when a golfer uses horizontal hinging, that he comes into impact with an open clubface and then it rotates to vertical through impact. He didn't demonstrate what happens to the clubface post-impact, other than to say that a golfer tries to keep the clubface vertical to the ground, which he claimed (and BM agreed) is not possible. What do you think of this explanation of hinging actions? I think that it's crazy. First of all, a hinging action only happens between impact and the end of the followthrough and it doesn't occur pre-impact. A swinger uses a release swivel action pre-impact - whether he uses AH or HH post-impact. They didn't discuss the biomechanics of a hinging action and how it differs from the biomechanics underlying a release swivel action. They are seemingly clueless about this issue. Here is Rob Neal studying the clubshaft. He had never previously heard of hinging actions. So, he asked this question. He pointed at the end of the clubshaft with his index finger - and asked whether the clubshaft rotates about its axis in horizontal hinging. When AZ stated "yes", he then asked whether AH meant that the clubshaft doesn't rotate around its longitudinal axis. When he seemingly gathered that the answer to that question was affirmative - he stated that AH cannot exist in a real world golf swing. I think that these "experts" are clueless about hinging actions - they don't realize that the difference between HH and AH is due to a variable degree of counterclockwise rotation of the clubshaft during its followthorugh travel - due to a variable degree of external rotation of the left humerus in the left shoulder socket per unit time. Jeff.
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daryl
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Post by daryl on Dec 9, 2010 13:11:03 GMT -5
Jeff,
I agree. They don't understand the basic fundamentals of Hinging. But then, neither does the person explaining it to them. It's very unfortunate that this discussion was allowed to continue without some one from the audience asking or offering clarification.
Frankly, I'm a bit embarrassed by the whole segment and I think that Brian Manzella should offer an apology and an explanation as to how and why this situation has occurred.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 13:18:03 GMT -5
Daryl,
People from the audience did ask for clarification during that presentation.
I never heard/saw any "clarification" by any audience member, which doesn't surprise me. I don't think that there was a TGM literate person in that audience.
Jeff.
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Post by wedgey on Dec 9, 2010 13:57:33 GMT -5
Maybe at the next one a TGM expert should go and straighten out this, i guess TGMer's could have gone and represented their views, no?
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daryl
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Post by daryl on Dec 9, 2010 14:32:38 GMT -5
Maybe at the next one a TGM expert should go and straighten out this, i guess TGMer's could have gone and represented their views, no? It's very unfortunate. Who knew that the "Anti-Summit" would be about TGM mis-information, mis-interpretation and "Anti-TGM" Propaganda? If I recall, from the Brian Manzella Website and at Richie 3jacks website, that TGM wasn't going to be the topic of discussion. We were all informed that the information and perspectives would be fresh and new and along the lines of discovery and not along the lines of dis-proving and/or bashing TGM. I offered to teach Brian "Hinge Action" but he banned me from his web-site and then resigned his G.S.E.D. Geez, it isn't that difficult to learn. I feel bad that Brian misled them. Brian misled the Scientists into criticizing TGM. Brian used them like a "Tool". I don't think that's fair minded and I'm sure that the Scientists wouldn't have agreed to such an event if they knew that they would be "Baited" in that way. AZ was duped. Here's my view of the "Anti-Summit". Very sad.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 18:19:50 GMT -5
Daryl,
I don't think that the BM AntiSummit was specifically anti-TGM. I also don't think that the "experts" were duped. They stated whatever they believed. However, I do agree that one could sense an anti-TGM slant to some of BM's comments. Interestingly, he never directly referred to the TGM book or HK. He simply stated that there were "other" opinions. He acted the same way towards the S&T swing philosophy, and he never referred to the S&T swing or B/P directly.
Jeff.
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daryl
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Post by daryl on Dec 9, 2010 19:12:16 GMT -5
Oh, I wasn't aware that other methods include Hinge Action. So, maybe he was referring to another method?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 19:23:10 GMT -5
Daryl,
That was just Brian's way of avoiding having to refer directly to the TGM book.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 20:47:30 GMT -5
Why would a hinge action that is employed from impact to followthrough be relevant anyway? Because of shaft dynamics, the clubhead is essentially a free moving object at impact. The clubhead interacts with the ball for 0.0004 seconds. Is someone really expected to somehow influence the clubhead with a hinge action within this time frame?
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Post by wedgey on Dec 9, 2010 22:09:54 GMT -5
I don't know that much about hinge actions or how they affect the ball but i think a lot of players are trying to do something to affect shot shape and trajectory when called for, what that is called and how it's done doesn't matter to me.
If Daryl says Wedgy do this and you'll get that result, and i do as Daryl says or even think i did it and i get the result i want and have a certain feel for it, that's all i care about. And Daryl can call it whatever he wants.
They can show me video's of ball contact and say what i thought i did i didn't do and there's no such thing as hinge action that can affect the ball contact and alter anything, and i would say well i got the shot i wanted doing something that doesn't happen and can't be right so i think i'll just keep doing it anyways thanks, maybe i'll even call them hinge actions
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 23:32:04 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "Why would a hinge action that is employed from impact to followthrough be relevant anyway?"
Why does a tennis player, who performs a backhanded tennis stroke, continue the backhanded stroke motion to well beyond impact? Why don't they simply stop the motion at impact?
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 23:40:44 GMT -5
Jeff,
Why are you avoiding answering my question by in turn asking me an irrelevant question?
You stated that hinge actions only happen at impact and continue to the followthrough. I asked what the relevance of such an action would be.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 23:45:28 GMT -5
Natep,
I believe that a hinging action is unavoidable if one wants to complete the golf stroke. The golf stroke starts at the initiation of the downswing and ends at the finish. Between impact and the end of the followthrough, the arms/hands have to be "doing something", and hinging actions simply describe what they should be doing during that phase of the golf stroke.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 9, 2010 23:52:49 GMT -5
I understand that the arms/hands have to do something after impact. My question is how are different hinge actions that begin at impact relevant to the golf shot? If they begin at impact, and impact lasts 0.004 seconds, during which time the clubhead is essentially a free moving object not susceptible to any manipulation by the golfer, what then would be the effect of an angled, vertical, or horizontal hinge action on a particular shot?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 0:12:18 GMT -5
Natep,
Why does Phil Mickelson use vertical hinging, and not horizontal hinging, when he hits a flop shot? I think that the answer is that he needs to program a VH action into his golf stroke, so that the clubface orientation angle pre-impact, and during impact, can be optimized.
If a tennis player wants to hit a top-spin action stroke, and not a slice action stroke, then he needs to program the specifically chosen followthrough action into his total stroke action because the tennis stroke is one continuous motion. The followthrough action for a top spin action stroke is very different to the followthrough action of a slice spin action stroke.
Jeff.
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