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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 16, 2010 13:27:15 GMT -5
I am trying to keep and open mind, nmgolfer.
I do think its rather odd that BM, a Golfing Machine doctor based his teachings by the tenants of the science laid out in that book, his understanding of those teachings, but now says much of it is junk.
So we are to believe he was completely fooled before but NOW he is off to get it right. Tough to take at face value I guess. I think its his best shot at a money grab, not that there is anything wrong with it, just that I am dubious based on his previous history of judging what science is best in the golf swing.
Its also interesting that he constantly refers to people who use the Golf Machine as the basis of their teaching akin to some religious sect, yet if you read many of the posts on that site no one questions the validity of BM's statements, or his associates. I am sure if he came out and said the world was flat there would be quite a few takers.
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Post by wedgey on Dec 16, 2010 15:13:02 GMT -5
Sounds like sour apples, especially from nmgolfer, lots of people believe in things to find out later those things were incorrect and then they decided to find out what are the correct things if they could. I don't see that as anything unusual. It would be more unusual to just still stick to the things that are incorrect even when you know they are, but refuse to change.
If been wrong about the golfswing was a crime i think all of us would be in jail the both of you included, why all the hate?
I doubt it's a money grab, that's ridiculous there ain't that much money to be made from something like that, plus if he makes some money on it, so what, it's the American way of free enterprise. I don't agree with Jeff or B.M. or anyone on everything they say as no one has all the answers, but it's good to try and find them if you can.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 16, 2010 15:30:58 GMT -5
Whats unusual is the process, trashing the people who don't believe like he does (I can speak from personal experience).
I think there is money to be made, whether its 50k or 500k, its something.
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Post by wedgey on Dec 16, 2010 16:29:53 GMT -5
Whats unusual is the process, trashing the people who don't believe like he does (I can speak from personal experience). I think there is money to be made, whether its 50k or 500k, its something. So it's payback? He trashed me so i'm going to trash him, highschool stuff at best, from both sides. I trashed you last, i win! Silly kids...lol. On the money side , like i said , so what if he makes money on it. Lot's of people on the net making money selling all kinds of golfswing methods, books, dvd's etc. making all kinds of claims and promises along the way, that's the American way of free enterprise.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 16, 2010 16:59:02 GMT -5
The segway was more or less a 'neat' invention, but had too many pitfalls to count. At best it could've been used in very select cities successfully, particularly Manhattan. But even then the cost of buying was way to prohibitive for person that would have used it (non-executive working professional and lower on the pay grade scale).
I have no problem with Brian making money. From my experience, everything I've ever bought from him was well done and worth the money. He sells his videos on the net for $10, which I've found to be very good, well produced, well edited, and with tons of info. Even if I disagree with some of the philosophies, I think that the effort is there to make a quality product.
That may all change when I see the Anti-Summit video, but even according to Jeff Mann it's well produced and it's at a good value because it's 6 hours long.
It's pretty obvious to me that much of what Brian does is simple marketing 101. But hey, you need to do that to promote your product otherwise nobody will know what you found.
My only problem from what I see is that he will sometimes expect people to believe the scientists and 'experts' just because they are scientists and experts and if you don't, he tries to shield you away from them. Sometimes that's what needs to happen because you don't know what kook is trying to pull what. But too many times the person doesn't understand or has a good point in disagreement or it's just a case of people defining certain terms differently and then they can come upon agreement...but that doesn't happen because the person is either banned or has their posts deleted.
3JACK
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Post by wedgey on Dec 16, 2010 17:03:18 GMT -5
Are you or Gregg banned from B.M.'s forum? or does he delete your posts because you disagree?
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 16, 2010 23:47:44 GMT -5
Are you or Gregg banned from B.M.'s forum? or does he delete your posts because you disagree? bingo not banned but posts have been deleted, or the words modified within them, at least for me cant speak for richie. I am probably being to hard on him, and the people who run his forum, but its sure seems like if you don't see it the way he does he does not want you posting those thoughts. I guess thats what makes me skeptical about what he is going to find in his research if other opinions are not even allowed to be voiced. If his science is questioned. I guess time will tell.
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Post by wedgey on Dec 17, 2010 1:32:29 GMT -5
Lets suppose you have a bookshelf full of business books (next to your golf books of course) and some of them are about marketing. What do you suppose someone might glean from them? but before we get to that lets take a step back... There's something that needs saying. I suspect most golfers who enter the BM realm do so thinking they are entering a place to learn. But that's a naive misguided notion. The BM has said repeatedly his forum has only one purpose and that is to promote the BM. Consequently anyone or anything that does not serve that prime directive will be evicted...sooner or later... and its no big deal, certainly not a reflection on the evicted individual... that's just is the way it is...its a free country and he can run his forum the way he sees fit...Many have been evicted many more will be... C'est la vie Seems Golfers who enter the BM realm are but nameless faceless things to be shaken loose of their greenbacks. I'm not suggesting they should not enter, but to not do so as unwitting dupes. Caveat Emptor. Wedgey ... Am I sour apples? Nah! Life's too short... Back to our marketing discussion. What do you suppose those business books would tell you about how to squeeze as much profit as possible from an exclusive event? Why perhaps they would tell you to promote it as the next greatest thing since sliced bread... a must attend event... Why you might even say it cannot be recorded (for what ever reason) so the "guests" will feel they absolutely MUST attend or miss out and even would be willing to pay more for a seat... Right? But remember your goal is to squeeze as much profit as possible so you must record it, so you can later sell the video. (knowing all along thats where the real money will be made in residual income) So at the last minute (after all who are going to attend have made their plans and paid for their seats) you announce that it will be recorded after-all! Yipee! Everyone's happy right? The lucky attendees even get a "free copy" ! Ah.... the wonders of marketeers... what will they think of next... That's life, and there's lots of that going on and it's up to the individual to spend or not spend their money on these types of things, late night t.v. is full of these infomercials hocking their wares, so i guess it's legal. And if people are gullible that's their problem, but B.M. isn't alone in the golf industry doing this and if he can make money selling his stuff more power to him. Remember buyer be ware, the onus is on the consumer.
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Post by wedgey on Dec 17, 2010 1:43:41 GMT -5
Are you or Gregg banned from B.M.'s forum? or does he delete your posts because you disagree? bingo not banned but posts have been deleted, or the words modified within them, at least for me cant speak for richie. I am probably being to hard on him, and the people who run his forum, but its sure seems like if you don't see it the way he does he does not want you posting those thoughts. I guess thats what makes me skeptical about what he is going to find in his research if other opinions are not even allowed to be voiced. If his science is questioned. I guess time will tell. That seems extreme to alter your posts and delete them because you have a different take on things especially for someone claiming to be seeking the truth. I guess we will see eventually, but i doubt there will be any real earth shattering info. maybe, but time will tell. He has pretty much painted himself in a corner and has to come up with the goods or it's going to look like a big deflated info/science balloon.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 17, 2010 9:43:19 GMT -5
What do you suppose those business books would tell you about how to squeeze as much profit as possible from an exclusive event? Why perhaps they would tell you to promote it as the next greatest thing since sliced bread... a must attend event... That's just puffery, which happens in every business. Longhorn Steakhouse would have me believe that their steaks are the best. Outback Steakhouse would have me believe their steaks are the best. Everybody has the best car dealership. It's part of our business culture and has been that way for so long that people in our society should recognize that. Now the problem is when it becomes blatant false advertising and using bait and switch methods. If Brian claims that an event in golf instruction where they discuss the golf swing will be the greatest thing ever in his opinion...there's nothing wrong with that. But if he claims that and then we get there and find out it's an Amway seminar or he's trying to sell us on 'The Sheriff' putting training aid...then that's unethical. I don't know what Brian's costs for the event were. I'm not sure that Neal, Zick and Wood were willing to do it for free. The cost to rent out the room probably wasn't free nor cheap. And you can just rent out some room, usually people expect something nice. Then the equipment you need for the presentation. As far as not taping it, I give Brian credit in that his premium videos are usually well produced and edited. So I would think he wants to hold this AntiSummit video to the same standard. He probably knew that if he were to tape it and have it produced and edited to his standards, that would take a lot of his time to do it. In essence, I really don't think he made a lot of money in this AntiSummit video. Where Brian's marketing is very prevalent is in trying to coin mechanical terms in the golf swing like the 'tumble', 'shake the sugar', 'throw the drunk off your back', etc. Making YouTube videos for free and promoting them to get further interest in his service and premium videos. And other stuff like that. I think what Brian has gathered over the years and in particular seeing guys like Mac O'Grady along with Plummer and Bennett is that if you want to be known as the 'greatest teacher ever', you need to be the head honcho of your own swing philosophies and have people that work under you. If Brian were to become a MORAD instructor (let's say that he does wind up believing that MORAD is the superior teaching instruction), then he couldn't legitimately lay claim to being the best instructor on the planet because he would be 'under' Mac O'Grady. And there were would be a bunch of other instructors just as qualified as himself. Same with S&T. 3JACK
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Post by wedgey on Dec 17, 2010 12:40:10 GMT -5
Wow... comparing the BM to a late night TV huckster... Not even I (so called sour apples) goes quite that far but perhaps you are not far off Wedgey. This speaks to a larger issue in my mind.. At what cost? At what cost do we Americans make a buck? Is it ok to deceive the 'consumer'? Is it ok to lay claim to the work of others? Is it ok to read people's pm's and modify their posts... all in the name of "making a buck"? Some of us know the answer. But when a persons' goal is to be recognized as the "best" sometimes it seems they will stop at nothing to get there. America's boardrooms, CEO's (and positions in government) and are filled with psychopaths that would stop at nothing to get where they are and we are a society in decline because of it. Ends never justifies means. That's life, and there's lots of that going on and it's up to the individual to spend or not spend their money on these types of things, late night t.v. is full of these infomercials hocking their wares, so i guess it's legal. And if people are gullible that's their problem, but B.M. isn't alone in the golf industry doing this and if he can make money selling his stuff more power to him. Remember buyer be ware, the onus is on the consumer. You speak of a moral issue, that's a whole library right there. If it's not illegal and people can make money at it they are going to do it, even if some of us feel it's not right, just the way it's been for ever, geez even if it's illegal and money is to be made some will have no problem doing whatever to make that money, sad but true. Anyways B.M. can do what he likes, he's got the same rights as everyone else, even if some of us find it distasteful. I don't think B.M. is ripping anyone off, he has provided the goods people paid for, now like anything else some people like the goods and others feel like they didn't get what they paid for, but that's happening in every market place, nothing new there.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 20, 2010 14:47:11 GMT -5
I don't think B.M. is ripping anyone off, he has provided the goods people paid for, now like anything else some people like the goods and others feel like they didn't get what they paid for, but that's happening in every market place, nothing new there. I agree. He's created a lot of free YouTube videos that have helped a lot of golfers. Now, I think it's a way to further promote his teaching services and premium videos, but so be it. 3JACK
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 21, 2010 8:44:27 GMT -5
So the Youtubes make it okay 'on-balance'? There's no 'on-balance' greater good in the above equation. If the majority voted to take your home and give it to the homeless "for the greater good" would that be right? That's not remotely a logical analogy. We haven't discussed this yet. I would probably feel jipped to a degree. I'm sure others would feel more jipped and some less jipped. That's why I said I would've waited at least 6 months after the Anti-Summit to release the video. At least with that timeframe the attendees would feel like they got the information well before the people that purchased the video. The problem is that Brian should have known it needed to be recorded. If anything, for the sake of scientific validation. I agree. I know personally I wouldn't make a fuss over it. I think for me if I had the time to travel to Arizona and did so, it was because I wanted to be there in person instead of watching on video. But, I certainly don't speak for everybody. It's not so much getting the science wrong as it is how adamant he gets over how he has the right answer. The thread on his forum back in '03 where he claimed everybody hits down on the driver was something I knew had to be false well before then. Mainly because 2 friends of mine had a trick shot where one would lay down flat on the ground, stick a tee in his *teeth* and tee the ball up from there and the other would take a swing *full bore* and pipe it down the middle. It's about as crazy and incredible of a trick shot as it gets, but I knew from there that in that situation they weren't hitting down on that driver otherwise the one on the ground wouldn't be alive. The 'battered wives' stick with Brian in large part because he's helped them with their games. Golf is the type of game where if an instructor does legitimately help a student, he could probably physically abuse the student and the student would still stick by him. I think the rest are more or less ardent anti-TGM guys, either having a falling out with Joe Daniels or Lynn Blake. So when Brian bashes TGM, he's just doing their dirty work. 3JACK
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Post by bullet on Dec 26, 2010 18:57:50 GMT -5
Its nothing but a lesson in Internet marketing... Remember when rumors of the segway first surfaced? There was all this hyped up secrecy and building of suspense... Dean Kamen wanted the world to think his invention was going to change transportation as we know it. The "boys" behind the not so cleverly named project 1.68 want us to think they're going to change the world of golf too. Then the segway came out (and I dare say has landed with a great big thud). Yeah segway is cool but its nothing but an expensive toy and will never change transportation in any appreciable way. Do you see the parallels? The only difference I see is that Kamen had an impressive record of innovation where as the characters behind "project 1.68" have a record of generally being clueless about golf physics. Honestly? Do they really believe that a few "top-secret" trips to visit "real experts" where they will carry on superficial discussions will in any way qualify them to write a book on the subject, let alone a ground breaking one? That's like thinking a kindergartner can write the next great American novel... sure its possible but EXTREMELY unlikely... when pigs fly. I dare say anyone who expects project 1.68 to produce anything but profits for its promoters needs a check-up from the neck up. I have seen a bunch of the manzalla swing videos and I learned nothing new, just a bunch of moves that have been tried before but are in reality just quick fixes aside from that , what is an expert ? take Neal , for instance , ask any pro golfer in the pacific region who he is , the answer will be close to nil science is fine , but human biomechanics is a field of opinions , just watch the expert biomechanics swing the golf club.. how can you be an expert if you can't do
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 26, 2010 20:54:22 GMT -5
Bullet
You wrote-: "science is fine , but human biomechanics is a field of opinions , just watch the expert biomechanics swing the golf club.. how can you be an expert if you can't do."
A scientific "expert" in the field of human biomechanics does not also have to be a subject in his scientific experiment. He only has to use rigorous standards with respect to the design of his experimental study, its methodological process, and also with respect to the interpretation of the study's results.
Steve Nesbit and Rob Neal perform scientific research with respect to the golf swing. They don't even have to be golfers for their research work to be valid/useful.
Jeff.
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