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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 13:10:16 GMT -5
You are free to take the TM calculation of face angle on "faith", but it may be wrong for obvious reasons (previously expressed by many forum members).
The Phantom camera does provide "real" face angle numbers - at first ball contact, at maximum ball compression and at the time of ball-clubface separation. Those 3 clubface angle measurments are "real" measurements and they can be independently used in three separate estimations of the effect of clubhead path, clubface angle, and the degree of off-center hit (obtained from the impact powder) on ball flight.
Jeff.
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dhc1
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by dhc1 on Dec 11, 2012 13:23:36 GMT -5
Is the first blush real-world application as follows:
1. Track man should be used outdoors as using it indoors won't let you identify obvious miscalculations in ball flight (e.g., push draw vs expected slice). If the ball flight matches what TM calculates, it is probably a center strike and the other calculated outputs are likely correct.
2. If TM's ball flight is off vs. reality, it was hit off-center and one should powder the face to see where it's been hit. If this happens consistently, it's time to get MOI matched as there's no sense in buying new clubs if you can't consistently hit in the center.....
I think that kelvin and Jeff are to be commended for doing some impressive analysis here.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 13:32:48 GMT -5
You are free to take the TM calculation of face angle on "faith", but it may be wrong for obvious reasons (previously expressed by many forum members). The Phantom camera does provide "real" face angle numbers - at first ball contact, at maximum ball compression and at the time of ball-clubface separation. Those 3 clubface angle measurments are "real" measurements and they can be independently used in three separate estimations of the effect of clubhead path, clubface angle, and the degree of off-center hit (obtained from the impact powder) on ball flight. Jeff. Yup, my thoughts but your words are much better. cdlaw......do you feel like all the discussions about face and ball flight that have taken place the past year using the Tman device were accurate representations of what was really happening at impact with regards to face/path/aoa? I know they calculated the face angles, AOA's....this very calculation has often times been wrong, as it was with several of my shots...........its a good thing I did not adjust my swing based on Tman's "precise" measurements the past year or so! What a waste that would have been. I believe there is a LOT more going on at ball/face impact and thats what "more" was meant in an earlier post.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 13:37:52 GMT -5
You are free to take the TM calculation of face angle on "faith", but it may be wrong for obvious reasons (previously expressed by many forum members). The Phantom camera does provide "real" face angle numbers - at first ball contact, at maximum ball compression and at the time of ball-clubface separation. Those 3 clubface angle measurments are "real" measurements and they can be independently used in three separate estimations of the effect of clubhead path, clubface angle, and the degree of off-center hit (obtained from the impact powder) on ball flight. Jeff. Jeff - The camera isn't measuring or calculating anything and the video provides no numbers. Trackman doesn't calculate face angle the way you described that face angle could be calculcated. At some point one number is enough. You could develop a machine with hundreds of numbers over time and I suspect it would be exhausting to use effectively. I see tour players use this machine constantly. When I play in state amateur events the good players have been on this machine. It could be wrong for all I know. At some point in life you won't have all of the answers to make a decision and you have to have faith. If I don't have Tman's face angle reading I have nothing but a guess. It is impractical to buy a phantom camera, shoot one shot, calculcate "face angle" (however it is defined) and then go hit another shot and try to change my swing. Open and closed aren't precise enough for me to get better. Maybe someone just starting, but I don't play at that level. I play to break 70 everytime I go out.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 13:44:20 GMT -5
You are free to take the TM calculation of face angle on "faith", but it may be wrong for obvious reasons (previously expressed by many forum members). The Phantom camera does provide "real" face angle numbers - at first ball contact, at maximum ball compression and at the time of ball-clubface separation. Those 3 clubface angle measurments are "real" measurements and they can be independently used in three separate estimations of the effect of clubhead path, clubface angle, and the degree of off-center hit (obtained from the impact powder) on ball flight. Jeff. Yup, my thoughts but your words are much better. cdlaw......do you feel like all the discussions about face and ball flight that have taken place the past year using the Tman device were accurate representations of what was really happening at impact with regards to face/path/aoa? I know they calculated the face angles, AOA's....this very calculation has often times been wrong, as it was with several of my shots...........its a good thing I did not adjust my swing based on Tman's "precise" measurements the past year or so! What a waste that would have been. I believe there is a LOT more going on at ball/face impact and thats what "more" was meant in an earlier post. Greg - How do you know which number was correct to state that Trackman was wrong? A protractor measurement from the video screen of a shot with a camera not perpendicular to the ball? Serious question. Tuxen did not create Trackman based upon the D plane. I believe that the D plane is the best description we currently have to describe ball flight. In fact, the term "zeroing out" dervies from Trackman and is used by Jeff Mann himself. If you cannot put impact into numbers it's just a subjective guess about face, path and center strike. I've probably hit about 500 balls on Trackman and I've found it very accurate. Most people that don't how to interpret the numbers could find the face angle reading frustrating. I've never heard of a problem with AoA. Not sure that anyone would even know their AoA numbers without a machine like Trackman. In theory you could first learn your AoA number from a video and calculation. But even that has its limitations based upon where the camera was positioned and whether one or two cameras were used.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 14:01:03 GMT -5
No one questioned face angle till the last few months, so I am not surprised you have never heard anything about AOA.
What do you mean by "not perpendicular" to the ball?
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 14:06:01 GMT -5
Greg -
Meaning the camera is perpindicular to the ball and not above the ball.
What was your numerical AoA before you went on Trackman? AoA is changing all over the place just like face angle.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 14:17:10 GMT -5
No one questioned face angle till the last few months, so I am not surprised you have never heard anything about AOA. What do you mean by "not perpendicular" to the ball? I did three years ago. And many others also.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 14:19:20 GMT -5
Greg - Meaning the camera is perpindicular to the ball and not above the ball. What was your numerical AoA before you went on Trackman? AoA is changing all over the place just like face angle. I had never had AOA measured, and it does change on each swing no doubt. Again the camera seemed to deviate from Tman as well on this data, I can tell you Tman seemed to always be more down than the camera showed, my only question is its harder for my eye to judge those degrees. My eyes though are good enough to see an open face versus a closed face, and conversely the ball started to the right, not left!!!!!
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 14:20:30 GMT -5
No one questioned face angle till the last few months, so I am not surprised you have never heard anything about AOA. What do you mean by "not perpendicular" to the ball? I did three years ago. And many others also. I stand corrected.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 15:22:30 GMT -5
Greg - Meaning the camera is perpindicular to the ball and not above the ball. What was your numerical AoA before you went on Trackman? AoA is changing all over the place just like face angle. I had never had AOA measured, and it does change on each swing no doubt. Again the camera seemed to deviate from Tman as well on this data, I can tell you Tman seemed to always be more down than the camera showed, my only question is its harder for my eye to judge those degrees. My eyes though are good enough to see an open face versus a closed face, and conversely the ball started to the right, not left!!!!! Gary - AoA changes throughout the swing itself in addition to each swing. The impact interval is 1/2000th of a second and I don't believe it's possible to view impact with the naked eye unless the shot was just a little pitch shot.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 15:41:20 GMT -5
Naked eye is not accurate, that makes it sound like I was just looking at a shot in real time. The camera is 24000 frames, I could see it pretty clearly frame by frame.
Again its Greg, or gmbtempe.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 15:51:24 GMT -5
Naked eye is not accurate, that makes it sound like I was just looking at a shot in real time. The camera is 24000 frames, I could see it pretty clearly frame by frame. Again its Greg, or gmbtempe. Greg - Two apologies. One for incorrectly spelling your name again. The other was I thought you were eyeballing impact while you were hitting after reading your post.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 16:07:30 GMT -5
Naked eye is not accurate, that makes it sound like I was just looking at a shot in real time. The camera is 24000 frames, I could see it pretty clearly frame by frame. Again its Greg, or gmbtempe. Greg - Two apologies. One for incorrectly spelling your name again. The other was I thought you were eyeballing impact while you were hitting after reading your post. No I hit about 5 drives with the camera mounted perpendicular to the ball. Again my untrained eye may have trouble discerning 5 degrees down and say 1 degree down. I mean the shot looked very level but thats a tougher one to see than the face being open or closed through impact. No worries on the name.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 16:12:19 GMT -5
cwdlaw223,
You wrote-: "The camera isn't measuring or calculating anything and the video provides no numbers."
That's factually inaccurate. The overhead-mounted Phantom camera sees the front of the clubface relative to the ball-target line (which is clearly marked), and therefore it is accurately measuring the clubface orientation angle at impact. The exact/precise clubface angle measurements are establishing afterwards, and I have no reason to believe that they should be inaccurate. Why should they be inaccurate?
You also wrote-: "I've probably hit about 500 balls on Trackman and I've found it very accurate."
How can the clubface angle measurement given by TM be accurate for off-center strikes if the calculation is performed backwards from the ball flight pattern?
You also wrote-: "A protractor measurement from the video screen of a shot with a camera not perpendicular to the ball?"
The Phantom camera is perpendicular to the ball when mounted overhead (using the mirror sytem), and it can better see the clubface angle from that vertical/perpendicular orientation.
You also wrote-: "In fact, the term "zeroing out" dervies from Trackman and is used by Jeff Mann himself."
Nonsense! I have been talking about zeroing out the clubhead path and clubface angle at impact for years before I ever heard about Trackman. I have repeatedly stated that I try and get my functionally flat LW to face the target by P6.9 and then I try and maintain an intact LAFW to P7.2+. That will ensure that the clubface and clubhead path are zeroed-out if the LAFW remains intact through impact and if the back of the functionally-flat left wrist continues to face the target between P6.9 and P7.1. I don't need a TM to learn how to hit the ball straight towards a distant target. I can easily land a golf ball within 1-2 yards of the flag from a distance of a 100 yards using those swing principles.
Jeff.
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