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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 9, 2013 23:43:37 GMT -5
See this Jeffy-forum thread. jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?163-Another-mediocre-ballstriker-as-swing-model-GreatJeffy posted these photos. He used the term "hip-stalling flipper" thereby implying that the flipping is due to hip stalling. I think that's a wrong-headed biomechanical explanation. I think that it has nothing to do with hip stalling, but it likely has something to with i) stalling of the forward motion of the FLW through impact and/or ii) over-active right arm/wrist straightening (eg. use of a puck-release action). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 10, 2013 10:14:50 GMT -5
Here is Dustin Johnson at impact. I can see no difference in the degree of hip stalling, compared to those golfers listed by Jeffy - but he is not flipping. It is a fallacy to believe that hip stalling produces flipping. Most golfers who use a full-roll hand release action + CF-arm release action will stall their hips through impact, but that doesn't mean that they have to be flippers. Virtuoso is also stalling his hips in his swing action, but he is not flipping when he uses my preferred delayed full-roll hand release action. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 10, 2013 12:50:33 GMT -5
See this Jeffy-forum thread. jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?163-Another-mediocre-ballstriker-as-swing-model-GreatJeffy posted these photos. He used the term "hip-stalling flipper" thereby implying that the flipping is due to hip stalling. I think that's a wrong-headed biomechanical explanation. I think that it has nothing to do with hip stalling, but it likely has something to with i) stalling of the forward motion of the FLW through impact and/or ii) over-active right arm/wrist straightening (eg. use of a puck-release action). Jeff. I believe hip stalling, or general lack of lower body rotation is a key componet in flipping, even slight flipping, for the better players (even decent players like myself). from your statements, if its not stalling why is there flipping, certainly these swings are well coordinated, with plenty of lag, no issues squaring the club face, so why is there a large difference between DJ and the three photo's posted above?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 10, 2013 13:14:20 GMT -5
Greg, There is no difference in the amount of hip (lower body) stalling between DJ and those other golfers (who flip through impact). They all stall their pelvic (lower body) rotation through impact. What DJ does differently is that he i) maintains the forward rotational momentum of his upper torso (and therefore left shoulder socket) through impact and ii) also the forward momentum of his left arm/FLW through impact. That allows him to maintain a FLW/intact LAFW to P7.3+ and avoid any flipping (which is often due to stalling of the forward momentum of the left arm/FLW through impact - presuming that an active right arm/wrist straightening action is not an additional swing fault problem). DJ and all those golfers use a "combined CF-arm release action + full-roll hand release action" and pelvic stalling is not necessarily a problem if they can avoid flipping by maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.3+ (as described). By contrast, active rotation of the lower-mid torso through impact is mandatory if a golfer uses a "combined CP-arm release action + no-roll hand release action" (like Ben Hogan). Here are capture images of me demonstrating a "combined CP-arm release action + no-roll hand release action" using a badminton racquet. Note how much I had to rotate my lower-mid torso counterclockwise during my followthrough swing action in order to move the impact triangle and hands inside-left after impact. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 11, 2013 10:53:24 GMT -5
What DJ does differently is that he i) maintains the forward rotational momentum of his upper torso (and therefore left shoulder socket) through impact and ii) also the forward momentum of his left arm/FLW through impact. That allows him to maintain a FLW/intact LAFW to P7.3+ and avoid any flipping (which is often due to stalling of the forward momentum of the left arm/FLW through impact - presuming that an active right arm/wrist straightening action is not an additional swing fault problem). But why is that happening for him and not them?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 11, 2013 11:13:13 GMT -5
Greg, It's the difference between hitting at the ball, instead of hitting through the ball. DJ is simply swinging his FLW through the immediate impact zone and he is not thinking of the clubhead, while those other golfers are more focused on getting the clubhead to the ball. It's essentially a mindset difference - whether one focuses on the forward motion of the FLW or whether one focuses on the motion of the clubhead. Those other golfers are "throwing the clubhead" at the ball, while DJ is concentrating on driving his FLW through the immediate impact zone. Look at this side-view of DJ. His pelvis has stalled, but he is still actively driving his arms/FLW through the impact zone in a targetwards direction, thereby maintaining a FLW/intact LAFW. That's the only way that one can prevent the left wrist from bending - considering the fact that the club has acquired a lot of forward momentum by impact. Hogan said it best in reference to his two-handed basketball pass from the right side - and to quote Hogan-: On page 98 of his soft-edition book, Hogan stated-: " As in the old two-hand basketball pass, the left arm and hand lead the right arm and hand. Be sure you hit through with the left as hard as with the right. On page 100 of his soft-edition book, Hogan stated-: " The great value, as I see it, of thinking in terms of this two-hand action is that it keeps the left hand driving all the time". By the way, Kellie in that other thread is doing the same thing. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 11, 2013 12:07:43 GMT -5
Jeff,
I am not disagreeing neccisarily but I feel like you are oversimplfying something very complex. I have a hard time beliving its essentially a "mind-set" difference.
I worked very hard for a long while and certainly had a flat left wrist, not throwing the clubhead at the ball, mind set and I always had a little flip.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 11, 2013 12:41:22 GMT -5
Greg,
It is not simply a mindset problem- because that's too simplistic. It is a "technique" problem and one has to master the technique. However, it starts with a mindset attitude where one focuses one's attention on driving the back of the FLW targetwards through impact, and one doesn't focus on the clubhead.
Maybe Virtuoso can explain how he managed to master a delayed full-roll hand release action, that enabled him to maintain a FLW/intact LAFW to P7.3 and avoid flipping, in one short session. His explanation may offer you further insights.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jan 11, 2013 18:29:12 GMT -5
Nope, Jeff. What you are describing is handle-dragging where the player, through brute strength in the hands and forearms, maintains a flat left wrist and a bent right wrist, just what Manzella taught for twenty years. Good way to restrict clubhead speed and not what Kelvin's students or DJ are doing. Kellie's and DJ's hips have not slid laterally like the flippers and they are far more open to the target. You better start looking at more than one camera angle.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 11, 2013 19:24:56 GMT -5
Jeffy,
Nope - you are wrong (which isn't unusual).
I am not describing handle-dragging, which is a TGM-style swing action that occurs between P4 and P6.9. I am describing a drive-hold hand release action that operates between P6.9 and P7.3, and sometimes even beyond P7.3. When the DH-hand release action first becomes operant at P6.9, the club has already caught up to the straight left arm and there is no clubhead lag present. Also, in this delayed full-roll hand release action, there is no attempt to maintain a bent right wrist through impact. In fact, the right wrist is expected to passively straighten through impact, or soon after impact, in this type of hand release action.
It also doesn't require "brute strength" to perform a delayed full-roll hand release action because the club has already caught up to the left arm by P6.9, and one is only guiding the intact LAFW/FLW targetwards between P6.9 and P7.3 using the gained momentum that the released club has already acquired by P6.9. The key "feeling" is simply the "feel" of leading with the FLW, so that the LAFW can remain intact between P6.9 and P7.3+.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jan 11, 2013 22:49:52 GMT -5
Jeffy, Nope - you are wrong (which isn't unusual). I am not describing handle-dragging, which is a TGM-style swing action that occurs between P4 and P6.9. I am describing a drive-hold hand release action that operates between P6.9 and P7.3, and sometimes even beyond P7.3. When the DH-hand release action first becomes operant at P6.9, the club has already caught up to the straight left arm and there is no clubhead lag present. Also, in this delayed full-roll hand release action, there is no attempt to maintain a bent right wrist through impact. In fact, the right wrist is expected to passively straighten through impact, or soon after impact, in this type of hand release action. It also doesn't require "brute strength" to perform a delayed full-roll hand release action because the club has already caught up to the left arm by P6.9, and one is only guiding the intact LAFW/FLW targetwards between P6.9 and P7.3 using the gained momentum that the released club has already acquired by P6.9. The key "feeling" is simply the "feel" of leading with the FLW, so that the LAFW can remain intact between P6.9 and P7.3+. Jeff. Good luck with that!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 12, 2013 0:00:19 GMT -5
It's not a matter of luck - it's a matter of good technique.
DJ performs it very well, and Virtuoso duplicated his hand release action perfectly.
It is interesting that KM never explained the biomechanics of a DHer release action in his article. I have explained the biomechanics of two biomechanical types of DH-release action in my impact chapter - for a i) no-roll hand release action and for a ii) full-roll hand release action.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jan 12, 2013 10:57:47 GMT -5
It's not a matter of luck - it's a matter of good technique. DJ performs it very well, and Virtuoso duplicated his hand release action perfectly. It is interesting that KM never explained the biomechanics of a DHer release action in his article. I have explained the biomechanics of two biomechanical types of DH-release action in my impact chapter - for a i) no-roll hand release action and for a ii) full-roll hand release action. Jeff. You must be joking! Kel has devoted at least five articles to the "biomechanics" and created at least three training aids to help teach them!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 12, 2013 13:42:18 GMT -5
Jeffy, I think that you are probably confusing issues. I am talking about the hand release actions that happen between P6.5 and P7.5 and that constitute the drive-hold features that allow a golfer to maintain a FLW/intact LAFW through the impact zone, and prevent flip-rolling swing faults. Here is the impact zone - colored in red. Where does KM discuss the biomechanics that produce the "drive" and "hold" components of the DH-hand release action within that zone? More specifically, please describe what is "driving" and what is "holding" from a biomechanical perspective? Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jan 12, 2013 15:24:26 GMT -5
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