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Post by natep on Dec 19, 2010 20:05:31 GMT -5
That little horse logo is hilarious
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daryl
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Posts: 18
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Post by daryl on Dec 21, 2010 1:10:46 GMT -5
I usually say that people, even the best of them, misunderstand some of TGM.
Line of Compression: Why get all scientific about it? Anytime two objects collide a "Line of Compression" occurs. A mishit has a Line of Compression. Line of Compression is the "Clubhead Path" during the Impact Interval. Simple.
Production and Manipulation: We produce the Line when we hit the Ball with the Clubface. What is Manipulation? Shut the Clubface and Hit the Ball. Open the Clubface and Hit the Ball. Hood the Clubface and Hit the Ball. Do all of those WITHOUT Hand Manipulation through the Impact Interval. I mean, don't twist your hands when striking the ball. Let the Clubhead follow a perfect path through the Ball whatever it is. Manipulation is how your set-up affects the Clubhead Path and Clubface Angle. (Sounds a lot like "D Plane")
Sustain the Line of Compression: If your Clubface is 1/100 degree open when the ball was struck and the line of compression (Path) was 1/100 degree to the right of the center of the Ball at Impact (inside-out), but at separation the Clubface was square because it closed 1/100 of a degree through the Impact Interval, did the Line of Compression produced at Impact stay 1/100 degree to the right, or did it rotate with the clubface through Impact?
If the LOC rotated with the Clubface then you "Sustained the Line of Compression". It makes no difference where the clubface was pointing at Impact regarding being able to sustain the Line of Compression. It only matters if the Line of Compression rotated with it.
To use this while playing golf, you generally Place the front of the ball at Low Point at Address. Playing the Ball 2 inches back would require more clubface closing rotation than the radius of the swing can provide so you won't be able to Sustain the Line of Compression (you'll have a Glancing Blow) unless you close the clubface an equally exact amount by rotating the shaft in your grip before your swing. Trial and error.
Principles / applications The meanings are simple but Homer didn't explain anything. He didn't forget to, he didn't want to. He wanted the instructor to demonstrate. He didn't want a "How to" book.
ALL of the Principles and Concepts in TGM are as simple as I've described above.
Anyone that's going to play the ball more than 1 or 2" back of Low Point will not sustain the line of compression. You may if you hit a Pull or a Push shot but not if you want the ball to go straight to the target. People have been trying for years with the ball back in their stance and have failed and say it can't be done. Well, it can't with the ball played back in your stance.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2010 10:31:06 GMT -5
Daryl,
I respectfully disagree with your argument.
You wrote-: "Line of Compression is the "Clubhead Path" during the Impact Interval. Simple. ---- If the LOC rotated with the Clubface then you "Sustained the Line of Compression". It makes no difference where the clubface was pointing at Impact regarding being able to sustain the Line of Compression. It only matters if the Line of Compression rotated with it."
You believe that a golfer needs to sustain a line of compression which you first define as the clubhead path through the impact interval. Then you imply that the clubface must rotate a certain amount during the impact interval to sustain the line of compression.
You wrote-: "If your Clubface is 1/100 degree open when the ball was struck and the line of compression (Path) was 1/100 degree to the right of the center of the Ball at Impact (inside-out), but at separation the Clubface was square because it closed 1/100 of a degree through the Impact Interval, did the Line of Compression produced at Impact stay 1/100 degree to the right, or did it rotate with the clubface through Impact?
If the LOC rotated with the Clubface then you "Sustained the Line of Compression".
I believe that your argument that has no logical or scientific support.
If the LOC is the direction of the clubhead path through the impact interval, then it is unaltered if the clubface orientation angle changes a small amount during the impact interval. The clubhead path remains the same. The reality (based on Trackman research) is that the ball flight is affected by the interaction between the clubhead path (during the impact interval) and the clubface orientation angle (during the impact interval). In a skilled golfer's swing, these values do not change by >1 degree during the impact interval if the ball is hit by the sweetspot of the clubface. I don't believe there is any such entity as a LOC - I think that the ball only reacts to the interaction between the i) clubhead path and the ii) clubface orientation at the time of impact (presuming a centered hit on the sweetspot).
You can produce as many drawings/diagrams as you want to to support your LOC concept, but you would need to provide scientific evidence to give your LOC concept any credibility.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2010 11:34:26 GMT -5
That little horse logo is hilarious In the middle ages people often got lead poison induced dementia drinking from lead vessels. The lord of la Mancha was one of the crazy ones. I suspect Mandrin ate too many lead based paint chips as a child . because I am the inquisitive type I looked for "lord of la mancha" all I got was Man of La Mancha who became better known as the character Don Quixote.
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daryl
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Post by daryl on Dec 21, 2010 11:44:29 GMT -5
Daryl, I respectfully disagree with your argument. You wrote-: "Line of Compression is the "Clubhead Path" during the Impact Interval. Simple. ---- If the LOC rotated with the Clubface then you "Sustained the Line of Compression". It makes no difference where the clubface was pointing at Impact regarding being able to sustain the Line of Compression. It only matters if the Line of Compression rotated with it." You believe that a golfer needs to sustain a line of compression which you first define as the clubhead path through the impact interval. Then you imply that the clubface must rotate a certain amount during the impact interval to sustain the line of compression. You wrote-: "If your Clubface is 1/100 degree open when the ball was struck and the line of compression (Path) was 1/100 degree to the right of the center of the Ball at Impact (inside-out), but at separation the Clubface was square because it closed 1/100 of a degree through the Impact Interval, did the Line of Compression produced at Impact stay 1/100 degree to the right, or did it rotate with the clubface through Impact? If the LOC rotated with the Clubface then you "Sustained the Line of Compression". I believe that your argument that has no logical or scientific support. If the LOC is the direction of the clubhead path through the impact interval, then it is unaltered if the clubface orientation angle changes a small amount during the impact interval. The clubhead path remains the same. The reality (based on Trackman research) is that the ball flight is affected by the interaction between the clubhead path (during the impact interval) and the clubface orientation angle (during the impact interval). In a skilled golfer's swing, these values do not change by >1 degree during the impact interval if the ball is hit by the sweetspot of the clubface. I don't believe there is any such entity as a LOC - I think that the ball only reacts to the interaction between the i) clubhead path and the ii) clubface orientation at the time of impact (presuming a centered hit on the sweetspot). You can produce as many drawings/diagrams as you want to to support your LOC concept, but you would need to provide scientific evidence to give your LOC concept any credibility. Jeff. I was hoping you would disagree. If I ever say anything that you agree with, then it's time for me to re-evaluate what I said. I'm explaining TGM. Believe whatever you like. I'm not defending the concepts however I use them in my own Golf Swing. The first step is understanding their meaning.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2010 11:53:54 GMT -5
Daryl,
Thats pretty weak because we are not debating (in general discussions about TGM) what it says but whether its correct? Or does it matter?
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daryl
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by daryl on Dec 21, 2010 12:19:37 GMT -5
Daryl, Thats pretty weak because we are not debating (in general discussions about TGM) what it says but whether its correct? Or does it matter? Mngolfer asked a question. He didn't ask for debate. I answered his question. My answer explains what Homer Kelley meant by those terms. It's all in the book but I'm not asking anyone to believe it, trust it or pass it along.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2010 12:30:20 GMT -5
Daryl, Thats pretty weak because we are not debating (in general discussions about TGM) what it says but whether its correct? Or does it matter? Mngolfer asked a question. He didn't ask for debate. I answered his question. My answer explains what Homer Kelley meant by those terms. It's all in the book but I'm not asking anyone to believe it, trust it or pass it along. Do you agree with it, not asking what it says?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2010 13:33:42 GMT -5
Daryl,
Let's presume that a golfer hits a push-draw shot that draws back to the center of the fairway, and that his clubhead path at impact is 4 degrees right-of-the-target while his clubface orientation is 2 degrees right-of-the-target. Let's presume that his clubface rotates 1/5 (or 1/2) of a degree during the impact interval, is he sustaining a LOC? If not, what does his clubface have to do to sustain a LOC during his push-draw shot?
Jeff.
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daryl
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by daryl on Dec 21, 2010 13:56:42 GMT -5
Daryl, Let's presume that a golfer hits a push-draw shot that draws back to the center of the fairway, and that his clubhead path at impact is 4 degrees right-of-the-target while his clubface orientation is 2 degrees right-of-the-target. Let's presume that his clubface rotates 1/5 (or 1/2) of a degree during the impact interval, is he sustaining a LOC? If not, what does his clubface have to do to sustain a LOC during his push-draw shot? Jeff. 4 degrees is way too much and the Line of Compression cannot be sustained. Hitting a Push-Draw and Sustaining the Line of Compression are two different things. To Sustain the line of Compression, the Impact and Separation Point need to be the same. To Hit a Push Draw is a matter of Clubface and Path divergence. You cannot hit a Push-Draw and Sustain the LOC. But you can Hit a Simple Draw and sustain the LOC. So, if you prepare to hit a simple draw, then just rotate everything to the right enough for the draw to land on Target. But I don't think that's what you mean by a Push-Draw?
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2010 14:25:04 GMT -5
Daryl,
How do you come up with 4 degrees is to much?
If 4 is to much what works, 2 degrees?
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daryl
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by daryl on Dec 21, 2010 14:49:40 GMT -5
Daryl, How do you come up with 4 degrees is to much? If 4 is to much what works, 2 degrees? 1 degree is too much . Maybe 1/2 of a degree is Max. If you place the ball at Low Point you'll be about 1/4 degree, give or take.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2010 14:56:23 GMT -5
Daryl, How do you come up with 4 degrees is to much? If 4 is to much what works, 2 degrees? 1 degree is too much . Maybe 1/2 of a degree is Max. If you place the ball at Low Point you'll be about 1/4 degree, give or take. Well in that case most pro's cannot even sustain the LOC....is it even important?
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daryl
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by daryl on Dec 21, 2010 15:57:56 GMT -5
1 degree is too much . Maybe 1/2 of a degree is Max. If you place the ball at Low Point you'll be about 1/4 degree, give or take. Well in that case most pro's cannot even sustain the LOC....is it even important? These are my estimates from being around the game for 40 years. About 1 of 100 players sustain the Line of Compression. Maybe 1 of 3 Tour Players. But this is all degrees of precision. Maybe 20 of 100 Amateurs are close to that precision and the other 2 of 3 tour players are close much of the time. Being close is very good. Good enough to control the ball. Distance, Trajectory and spin path. When you play well every other day or one day a week, I don't think that you're sustaining the Line of Compression. But when you play well every day, I think it means that your impact geometry is fairly consistent.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2010 17:27:09 GMT -5
Daryl,
You wrote-: "You cannot hit a Push-Draw and Sustain the LOC. But you can Hit a Simple Draw and sustain the LOC."
I have never heard of the term "simple draw". What is it?
Let's presume that I want to hit the ball with a draw flight pattern so that it will land at a certain spot. How much would the ball draw in space over a distance of 250 yards when employing a simple draw, and what will the clubhead path and clubface orientation angle be at impact? Also, what will the ball's take-off angle be in the horizontal plane with respect to the ball-target line?
Jeff.
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