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Post by tomdavis76 on Mar 4, 2013 22:05:01 GMT -5
Dariusz, I do not intend to waste my time answering inane general questions that are presented out-of-context. You also answered Greg as follows-: " Instead, show me a scientific paper that not letting the wrist bend = stopping the natural brings the same results as when it can bend freely." I highlighted the word "natural" because it is not natural to allow the left wrist to bend after impact - - if you play golf with an intact LAFW/FLW like Virtuoso. It would be very unnatural for Virtuoso to bend his left wrist after impact when his club was releasing within the plane of his LAFW (vertical plane of cocking/uncocking). Jeff. That's flat out wrong. Of course it is natural for the left wrist to bend back in the follow-through for drive/holders. It is as plain as day.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 22:37:29 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " That's flat out wrong. Of course it is natural for the left wrist to bend back in the follow-through for drive/holders. It is as plain as day." Why is it natural for the left wrist to bend after impact in DHers like Virtuoso and Dustin Johnson? I think that left wrist flipping would only happen after impact if the forward momentum of their FLW is not matched to the forward momentum of the clubhead. However, why should that phenomenon be "natural"? I believe that it is unnatural for a DHer golfer, like Virtuoso, to stall the forward momentum of his FLW after impact - if he has learned how to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.2+. Here is Dustin Johnson's followthrough - he maintains an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.3+ (image 2). What is he doing that is unnatural? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 22:44:00 GMT -5
Jeffy,
Could you precisely define what you mean by the term "underflip"? Can one "underflip" and still have a FLW at P7.2?
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 5, 2013 2:28:27 GMT -5
Thanks for a good comments and validation, Jeffy.
Jeff,
I believe that it is not possible naturally match the momentum of clubhead with wrists motion because clubhead tends to move with much greater angular velocity. If you allow wrist to hinge during the backswing they will not only tend to unhinge but also hinge in the other direction. This especially refers to rear wrist that moves more in a flexion orientation but also lead wrist that can start to do the same if there are conditions for it.
Now, why Johnson and similar to him seem not to flex their lead wrist - it is a very good question. They flex their rear wrists without a doubt. Perhaps an explanation is that they loose their grip strenght approaching impact (which can be observed in Johnson's case as well as in Hogan's case too sometimes) and/or losing the contact between rear palm and the grip (vide Singh) ? Perhaps, consequently, it is linked to a given intended kind of shot ? Or with a fact that they power the motion with lead arm more than with the rear one ?
I cannot answer this since it is beyond my researches and knowledge.
Cheers
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Post by tomdavis76 on Mar 5, 2013 9:21:54 GMT -5
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Post by tomdavis76 on Mar 5, 2013 9:23:47 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " That's flat out wrong. Of course it is natural for the left wrist to bend back in the follow-through for drive/holders. It is as plain as day." Why is it natural for the left wrist to bend after impact in DHers like Virtuoso and Dustin Johnson? I think that left wrist flipping would only happen after impact if the forward momentum of their FLW is not matched to the forward momentum of the clubhead. However, why should that phenomenon be "natural"? I believe that it is unnatural for a DHer golfer, like Virtuoso, to stall the forward momentum of his FLW after impact - if he has learned how to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.2+. Here is Dustin Johnson's followthrough - he maintains an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.3+ (image 2). What is he doing that is unnatural?Jeff. Nothing. It bends back later, that's all, like Gainey and other extreme laggers.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 5, 2013 10:40:57 GMT -5
Dariusz, You wrote-: " I believe that it is not possible naturally match the momentum of clubhead with wrists motion because clubhead tends to move with much greater angular velocity." That claim is only true between P6 and P7 - during the club-releasing phase of the downswing. However, the club and left arm obviously move at the same angular velocity between P7 and P7.5 if a golfer maintains a FLW/intact LAFW during the followthrough from P7 to P7.5. That's the only way that a golfer can naturally maintain a FLW during the followthrough. You also wrote-: " If you allow wrist to hinge during the backswing they will not only tend to unhinge but also hinge in the other direction. This especially refers to rear wrist that moves more in a flexion orientation but also lead wrist that can start to do the same if there are conditions for it." There is no physical/biomechanical law that mandates that the left wrist should flip-bend and that the right wrist should straighten between P7 and P7.3 - simply because the left wrist cocked upwards, and the right wrist bent backwards, during the backswing. David Toms doesn't dorsiflex his left wrist or straighten his right wrist in his followthrough. Neither does Charlie Hoffmann in this swing action. You openly admit that you do not understand why this happens when you stated-: " I cannot answer this since it is beyond my researches and knowledge." The answer is obvious - because it is the net result of all the forces operating through impact. The forces are the i) club's gained forward momentum through impact; ii) the forward momentum of the left arm and therefore lead wrist/hand through impact; iii) the degree of active right arm straightening and/or right wrist straightening through impact and iv) whether a golfer runs-out-of-right arm leading to passive right wrist straightening through impact. David Toms maintains a FLW/bent right wrist to P7.3+ because i) he maintains the forward momentum of his left arm/FLW and ii) he avoids any active right arm/wrist straightening and iii) he also avoids running-out-of-right arm, which will produce passive right wrist straightening. By contrast, Dustin Johnson only does i) and ii) and not iii) - so his right wrist passively straightens after impact. One can see that DJ maintains a FLW to well beyond P7.3 but he allows his right wrist to passively straighten through impact. I think that golfers become slap hingers for one of two reasons - i) they either use an active right wrist straightening action through impact or ii) they slow down the forward momentum of their left arm through impact and allow the gained momentum of the clubhead/clubshaft to passively flip-bend their left wrist and passively straighten their right wrist through impact. A slap-hinger may even use both actions - i) slow down their left arm and ii) actively straighten their right wrist through impact. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 5, 2013 10:47:27 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "Nothing. It bends back later, that's all, like Gainey and other extreme laggers."
I believe that the followthrough ends when both arms are straight and that usually happens between P7.2-P7.4, and any left wrist bending that happens after P7.4 is happening during the finish phase of the swing. Both TG and DJ only bend their left wrist after the end of the followthrough, which means that I was correct to state that it would be unnatural for a DHer, who naturally/automatically maintain an intact LAFW/FLW during the followthrough, to bend their left wrist soon after impact.
Some golfers even maintain a FLW between P7.5 and P9 - but that is unusual and that type of finish action (that enables a golfer to maintain a FLW during the finish phase) requires a very specific combination of biomechanical actions.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 5, 2013 12:02:26 GMT -5
Jeffy, You didn't define the term "underflip" and you simply referred me to KM's article. In that article, KM defines an "underflip" as follows -: " This is a subcategory of the flippers. Some players appear to have a great impact position, yet relax their hands/wrists into a flipped/cupped post-impact position. This allows the club to pass their left forearms in comparison to the DH’ers." In that description, KM refers to a cupped left wrist which means that the left wrist has flip-bend after impact - as occurs in a slap hinge release action (ala Vardon). That description would mean that an "underflipping release" and a "slap hinge release" could be synonymous terms. However, I can see no flip-bending of the left wrist post-impact in most of the examples supplied by KM. Harrison Frazer Padraig Harrington Chris Wood Shaun Micheel Anders Hansen VJ Singh Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 5, 2013 13:18:21 GMT -5
Jeff,
Both Toms as well as Hoffmann do straighten their rear wrists; Toms less, Hoffmann more.
Now, your claim that "there is no physical/biomechanical law that mandates that the left wrist should flip-bend and that the right wrist should straighten between P7 and P7.3" is not well thought out, since it appears s-h releasers (including all-time greats whom Toms or Hoffmann couldn't polish shoes) shouldn't have existed. Of course the law exists and I tried to tell you about before.
I've even formulated some rough theses what are conditions that favours all three release types.
We were close, now you are fading away again.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 5, 2013 15:49:04 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You wrote-: "Now, your claim that "there is no physical/biomechanical law that mandates that the left wrist should flip-bend and that the right wrist should straighten between P7 and P7.3" is not well thought out, since it appears s-h releasers (including all-time greats whom Toms or Hoffmann couldn't polish shoes) shouldn't have existed. Of course the law exists and I tried to tell you about before."
That is a simply an opinion, which I think defines "idiocy".
There is no law that mandates that the left wrist must flip-bend after impact. Slap-hingers produce flip-bending of the left wrist after impact because they arbitrarily do "something" biomechanically different to golfers who maintain an intact LAFW/FLW after impact. They are not mandated by some "law" to produce those biomechanical actions - and if there really was a law then maintaining a FLW/FLW from P7 to P7.5 couldn't exist.
Comparing Toms to some "all-time great" is a juvenile comment that adds "nothing" to the logic, or lack of logic, of your position.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 5, 2013 16:14:54 GMT -5
Jeff,
Nah, what defines "idiocy" is deliberate unwillingness to admit the truth. The law I am talking about is not that the wrist must or should flex, as you wrote (and noone ever said before), but that it can and probably will flex if there are certain conditions present. I guess this is a huge difference, isn't it ?
Apropos comparing Toms to all-time greats -- why is it juvenile ? You brought Toms because you regard him as a quality golfer to validate your theories; I can bring bigger names than Toms to validate mine. That's all.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 5, 2013 16:52:45 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You stated that the left wrist can flex after impact. That's obviously a true biomechanical possibility, but a "possibility" is not a "law", which implies a mandatory biomechanical phenomenon!!!
Toms is an excellent golfer who uses a certain hand release action (no-roll hand release action) while slap-hingers (like Vardon) use another type of hand release action. I only used Toms as an example of a golfer who uses a certain type of hand release action - and I didn't make a silly/irrelevant comment about "polishing shoes" which is a ridiculously demeaning comment that doesn't help to legitimize your personal opinion re: hand release actions in a golf swing.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 5, 2013 20:47:41 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You wrote-: "I've even formulated some rough theses what are conditions that favours all three release types.
I would be interested in seeing if you have the temerity to post your theses in this thread.
If you do, you need to understand that a full-roll hand release action is not a crossover hand release action, and you also need to explain why a golfer will more likely use either a i) full-roll hand release action while maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.3+ or ii) a no-roll hand release action while maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.3+ --- rather than a slap-hinge release action.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 6, 2013 1:54:38 GMT -5
Jeff, Answering your first post -- I said not only can but also will which is very typical for formulating laws, my friend. Answering your second post -- Here you are, I copied it from an earlier thread: a. the smaller the body turn (or the sooner it stops) is the sooner both arms (humera) lose connection with the body and go in front of the body; rear arm straighten too soon as well. The result is crossover of forearms due to both physical forces applied as well as anatomical possibility of RoM in this area; b. if the pivot is greater (resulting in having open hips and square or slighlt open shoulders at impact) both humera works more with the turning body, rear arm remains bent longer preventing the swivel to happen too early; c. the secondary axis tilt (upper body angle) -- now listen carefully; the greater it is the easier is to maintain wrist angles longer after the true low point on the ground since (excuse me not professional explanation) the shoulder girdle is being tilted creating a virtual low point farther targetwise and up -- which is very logical taking into account the wrists start to bent at the low point of the arc naturally (due to both physical forces applied as well as anatomical possibility of RoM in this area). Reasuming, in an unintentional motion: - poor pivot + no upper body extension = conditions for mix of crossover+slap-hinge release; - poor pivot + good upper body extension = conditions for pure crossover release; - good pivot + no upper body extension = conditions for slap-hinge release; - good pivot + good upper body extension = conditions for push release. I never dealt with full-roll or no-roll things because these are just details of a given release type. I focused of three main possibilities of what can happen with a clubhead in the wide impact zone. Cheers
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