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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 19, 2019 8:11:20 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Is Eric Cogorno using Brian Manzella opinions on the biomechanics involved in the start of the downswing?
He claims that PGA pros get the clubhead moving away from the target during P4-P5 by having a wider circle (ie. longer radius).
Do you think his instruction is promoting early casting action by the straightening of the right arm from P4-P5? Further I don't understand his 'unhinge' action with his left wrist from 11:00 to 12:44 to make that wider circle - does it make any sense to you?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 19, 2019 10:24:40 GMT -5
Dr Mann Is Eric Cogorno using Brian Manzella opinions on the biomechanics involved in the start of the downswing? He claims that PGA pros get the clubhead moving away from the target during P4-P5 by having a wider circle (ie. longer radius). Do you think his instruction is promoting early casting action by the straightening of the right arm from P4-P5? Further I don't understand his 'unhinge' action with his left wrist from 11:00 to 12:44 to make that wider circle - does it make any sense to you? DG I agree with Eric that the clubhead moves away from the target during the early downswing (as seen from face-on) thereby creating a wider circle and that it also moves more behind the golfer (as seen from DTL) - but I disagree with his biomechanical explanations. I do agree that a wider hand arc path between P4 and P5.5 allows for a more efficient release of PA#2 (after P5.5) and that a more horizontal hand arc path between P5.5 and impact allows for a shallower clubhead attack angle (creating what Tyler Ferrell calls a "Como flat spot" at the bottom of the clubhead arc between P6.5 and impact). Eric claims that the clubhead arc is wider during the early downswing because the left wrist uncocks (becomes more ulnarly-deviated) and because the right elbow straightens. That is untrue, and it would represent casting! Most professional golfers do not uncock their left wrist and straighten their right elbow between P4 and P5.5. The true cause of the clubhead moving away from the target between P4 and P5 (as seen from face-on) is simply due to the fact that the left arm becomes horizontal during that time period. Imagine a golfer having his left arm vertical at P4 and then horizontal to the ground at P5 - the clubhead must move away from the target (as seen from face-on) if he maintains the same degree of clubhead lag. The amount of movement of the left hand away from the target during that P4 => P5 time period would be equal to the length of the left arm minus the distance the left shoulder socket moves targetwards during that same time period. Acquiring a greater degree of secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend decreases the amount the left shoulder socket moves targetwards during that P4 => P5 time period.
Eric wrongly claims that the clubhead moves more behind the golfer (as seen from DTL) due to a clubshaft shallowing action secondary to increased left wrist bowing. First of all, the clubhead will move more behind the golfer (as seen from DTL) even if the left wrist remains geometrically flat and if there is no clubshaft shallowing action. The real, and obvious, reason the clubhead moves further away from the ball-target line between P4 and P5 is simply due to the fact that the clubshaft is moving from being parallel (or near-parallel) to the ball-target line at P4 to becoming more angled relative to the ball-target line secondary to the motion of the left arm going from being more vertical at P4 to being more horizontal at P5 while maintaining the same degree of clubshaft lag. This phenomenon will happen even if one does not perform a clubshaft-shallowing action. Finally, most pro golfers (who use the intact LAFW/GFLW alignment) during their downswing shallow the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5 via the biomechanical combination of left forearm pronation combined with an increased degree of external rotation of the right humerus and an increased degree of right forearm supination during their right arm's adduction maneuver. Jeff. p.s. You can post a link to this thread in the comment section of Eric's video if you are interested.
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Post by syllogist on Aug 19, 2019 10:34:12 GMT -5
Dr Mann Is Eric Cogorno using Brian Manzella opinions on the biomechanics involved in the start of the downswing? He claims that PGA pros get the clubhead moving away from the target during P4-P5 by having a wider circle (ie. longer radius). Do you think his instruction is promoting early casting action by the straightening of the right arm from P4-P5? Further I don't understand his 'unhinge' action with his left wrist from 11:00 to 12:44 to make that wider circle - does it make any sense to you? DG I'm not Dr. Mann but I can already see his eyes rolling as he views and considers the opinions of the presenter. It's a pleasure for me to be here as I find your discussions very interesting and, in many cases, refreshing. The presenter is geometrically challenged and apparently doesn't comprehend what naturally happens on an inclined plane. I'm a fan of "narrow" during the start down, meaning that when viewing Rory in the segment where he starts down in the face-on view, you can see how his upper body begins to rotate with little if any independent arm swing. So, from a face-on view in relation to the ball, his swing narrows. Dustin, as well. Good for maintaining wristcock without the need for applying negative torque from the wrists. Creates a nice, more vertical hand path from which the club can release with good speed. S Addendum by the Moderator: I edited this post because the comments were made before the final [/quote} tag and that will make the comments part of the quote. When replying to any post using the "quote" function, make sure that your comments are added after the final quote tag.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 19, 2019 10:53:02 GMT -5
Dr Mann Is Eric Cogorno using Brian Manzella opinions on the biomechanics involved in the start of the downswing? He claims that PGA pros get the clubhead moving away from the target during P4-P5 by having a wider circle (ie. longer radius). Do you think his instruction is promoting early casting action by the straightening of the right arm from P4-P5? Further I don't understand his 'unhinge' action with his left wrist from 11:00 to 12:44 to make that wider circle - does it make any sense to you? DG I'm not Dr. Mann but I can already see his eyes rolling as he views and considers the opinions of the presenter. It's a pleasure for me to be here as I find your discussions very interesting and, in many cases, refreshing. The presenter is geometrically challenged and apparently doesn't comprehend what naturally happens on an inclined plane. I'm a fan of "narrow" during the start down, meaning that when viewing Rory in the segment where he starts down in the face-on view, you can see how his upper body begins to rotate with little if any independent arm swing. So, from a face-on view in relation to the ball, his swing narrows. Dustin, as well. Good for maintaining wristcock without the need for applying negative torque from the wrists. Creates a nice, more vertical hand path from which the club can release with good speed. S Addendum by the Moderator: I edited this post because the comments were made before the final [/quote} tag and that will make the comments part of the quote. When replying to any post using the "quote" function, make sure that your comments are added after the final quote tag. I agree that most pro golfers narrow their clubhead arc during the downswing relative to the clubhead arc during the backswing - as seen in this comparative image of Rory McIlroy's golf swing's clubhead arc during his backswing and downswing. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 19, 2019 17:18:19 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
I have included a link to this thread in the comments section and invited Eric to participate in the discussion if he wishes.
Hi Syllogist- welcome to the forum and I'm happy you find the threads interesting and refreshing.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 20, 2019 6:54:39 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann I have included a link to this thread in the comments section and invited Eric to participate in the discussion if he wishes. Hi Syllogist- welcome to the forum and I'm happy you find the threads interesting and refreshing. DG I can see no evidence of your comment and link to this thread in Eric's comment section. Did he delete it? If true, I am not surprised! Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 20, 2019 16:36:10 GMT -5
Yes, it seems he deleted the comment
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 20, 2019 17:34:04 GMT -5
Look at these 3 capture images of Rory McIlroy's early downswing. I have drawn a red line between his shoulders and another red line along his left arm.
Image 1 is at P4 when his left arm is near-vertical and perpendicular to the ball-target line. Image 2 is at P4.25 and image 3 is at P4.5. Note that he rotates his upper torso counterclockwise between P4 and P4.5 without changing the angle between his left arm and his chest wall in the plane of left arm abduction. Note that he is not uncocking his left wrist or straightening his right arm - and yet the clubhead is moving further away from the target and also more behind him between P4 and P4.5 (due to the change in angular position of the left arm due to the counterclockwise rotation of his upper torso). Eric is seriously deficient in his understanding of the biomechanics/mechanics underlying this early downswing scenario! Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 21, 2019 10:03:10 GMT -5
I've just watched some more of Eric Cogorno videos and have decided they are far too vague for me to understand. There is nothing in his videos that are backed up by physics or optimal biomechanical reasoning. Its about as vague as Todd Graves 'The Single Plane Golf Swing' book, maybe even worse.
Here is another prime example:
DG
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mary
New Member
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Post by mary on Aug 21, 2019 14:42:09 GMT -5
Hello All,
Mary Lengle here. I produce all of the video content for Eric Cogorno. YouTube had actually held the comment containing the link to this thread for review. I just found it. Not certain who Jeff or DG are above, but II assure you, Eric would not delete this - or any -comments. He welcomes discussion. I'll make certain he sees this thread.
Thanks so much for even taking a look at the channel and for all of the feedback. I think conversations like these serve all golfers just striving to understand this crazy game and get better. Thus, my best shots are with a camera NOT a club!
Best, Mary
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 21, 2019 17:22:31 GMT -5
Hello All, Mary Lengle here. I produce all of the video content for Eric Cogorno. YouTube had actually held the comment containing the link to this thread for review. I just found it. Not certain who Jeff or DG are above, but II assure you, Eric would not delete this - or any -comments. He welcomes discussion. I'll make certain he sees this thread. Thanks so much for even taking a look at the channel and for all of the feedback. I think conversations like these serve all golfers just striving to understand this crazy game and get better. Thus, my best shots are with a camera NOT a club! Best, Mary Mary, It is refreshing to learn that Eric is open to discussion. He is certainly welcome to join this forum (which I moderate) in order to express his personal opinions regarding golf swing biomechanics/mechanics. This forum is very open to the expression of alternative opinions regarding the topic of "how best to perform a full golf swing action". Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 21, 2019 17:30:28 GMT -5
The comment is now showing under the You-Tube video (wasn't there before so maybe they remove and check the url links before allowing it to be published).
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 21, 2019 18:15:02 GMT -5
I've just watched some more of Eric Cogorno videos and have decided they are far too vague for me to understand. There is nothing in his videos that are backed up by physics or optimal biomechanical reasoning. Its about as vague as Todd Graves 'The Single Plane Golf Swing' book, maybe even worse. Here is another prime example: DG I can understand why you find Eric's videos too vague and too unsupported by reasoning based on sound mechanics and sound biomechanics. I personally find this particular video to be very vague and primitive by my usual standards - where I personally base my "optimum golf swing" opinions on the fundamentals of TGM mechanics and scientifically-sound kinesiological principles. So for example, I disagree with the three factors that Eric claims can increase swing power. First of all, Eric claims that a steeper backswing can increase swing power because the club will "feel" less heavy at P4 when the clubshaft plane is steeper. It is true that the club will "feel" heavier at the P4 position if the swingplane is more flat so that that the club becomes more "laid-off" at the P4 position (eg. as seen in Rickie Fowler's driver swing). However, I don't believe that it is a problem for a skilled pro golfer, who has a flatter backswing (eg. Ben Hogan and Matt Kuchar and Rickie Fowler), because a well-positioned RFFW can easily support the intact LAFW on its flatter plane at the P4 position. Also, Eric vaguely opines that a steeper backswing will allow the clubshaft to shallow-out during the downswing, thereby allowing the club to swing through faster ("whip through") during the later downswing. I disagree with this thinking because I believe that one does not have to shift planes much (if any) if one starts off at the P4 position with a flatter clubshaft (eg. just below the TSP) and I personally suspect that avoiding a significant shift in planar clubshaft travel between P4 and P6 is more conducive to a faster and smoother clubshaft motion during the early-mid downswing. Eric talks vaguely about shifting weight-pressure faster from the right foot to the left foot during the early downswing as being conducive to increased swing power. However, he does not explain the cause-and-effect relationship that would support his personal opinion. As you know, I believe that swing power is primarily related to the speed of release of PA#4 in a pivot-induced TGM swinging action, and that it is best correlated to the speed of targetwards motion of the left shoulder socket between P4 and P5.5, combined with the speed of the right arm adduction maneuver that is combined with a pitch elbow motion of the right elbow. I cannot understand how simply transferring weight-pressure faster from the right foot to the left foot between P4 and P5 can increase the efficacy of the pivot-induced release of PA#4. Finally, Eric thinks that it is advantageous to get "taller" during the backswing. How is this biomechanically possible? I believe that one would either have to decrease one's degree of anterior pelvic tilt and thereby acquire a more erect spinal posture between P1 and P4 and/or one would have to use an arch-extension maneuver to convert a rightwards-centralised backswing action into a vertical-centralised or leftwards-centralised backswing action. I personally think that it is much better to avoid changing one's spinal bend inclination angle between P1 and P4 and I think that a rightwards-centralised backswing action is a much more optimal biomechanical choice. Here are three pro golfers who use a rightwards-centralised backswing action and who are very long hitters by PGA tour and long-drive championships standards. Jamie Sadlowski (image 1), Tim Burke (image 2) and Cameron Champ (image 3). They do not try to get "taller" during their backswing action, and they i) maintain their spinal bend inclination angles and ii) avoid any use of an arch-extension maneuver during their backswing action.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 22, 2019 6:48:52 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
Can a golfer make himself taller by just extending his knees/legs while keeping the same anterior pelvic tilt?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 22, 2019 8:51:14 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann Can a golfer make himself taller by just extending his knees/legs while keeping the same anterior pelvic tilt? DG I don't believe that it is biomechanically practical to get taller during the backswing action by extending the knees. There are some pro golfers who straighten their right knee more during the backswing, but it does not make the golfer taller because they usually increase the slant of the upper right thigh towards the target in such a manner that there is very little elevation of the right hip joint. I have never seen a pro golfer extend the left knee during the backswing action, and they all either keep the left knee flexed to the same degree or they increase left knee flex by elevating their left heel off the ground. Jeff.
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