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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 10, 2011 15:08:33 GMT -5
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 10, 2011 15:13:50 GMT -5
I see very little difference Jeff, part of it is Richie has much broader shoulders and is what, 7" taller than Watson?
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Feb 10, 2011 15:14:05 GMT -5
Greg,
He is hitting a driver in May of last year and a 7 iron in Feb '11. RJ has a fault that I have fought for years. Hips sliding not turning. Rule of thumb is that from square straight on position the left hip should never slide past the inside of the heel. But like you Greg 3jack covers a lot of swing faults with incredible strength and timing. With you guys size and strength 300 yard average drives should be no problem.
For a man your size Greg I would have to say you need to widen your stance some. The same for current swing of 3jack. 3Jack also, as i have mentioned on his forum, has a very strong grip now as opposed to May where it looks conventional.
Rand
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 10, 2011 15:17:55 GMT -5
understood rand, thats why it was not the best but since Jeff used it for his comparison its what I worked with.
When your left hip slides to start the swing your head and right shoulder drops, baseline goes out the right.
I think his new swing is in a worlds better position to control low point.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 10, 2011 15:19:53 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "part of it is Richie has much broader shoulders and is what, 7" taller than Watson?"
I think that if a person is taller, and the spine proportionately longer, then the head should be further back for a given degree of secondary axis tilt. A vertical line drawn down from the center of 3jack's head is closer to being centralised between his heels (compared to Watson).
I don't understand how the width of the shoulders is a significant factor in this assessment of secondary axis tilt.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 10, 2011 15:27:20 GMT -5
Greg, You wrote-: "When your left hip slides to start the swing your head and right shoulder drops, baseline goes out the right." That should only happen if the pelvis slides left-laterally and the upper torso drops vertically down towards the right foot. That is not what I would recommend for any golfer. I believe in a pelvic shift-rotation movement that keeps the head stationary. Note that Stuart Appleby has moved his pelvis left-laterally thereby acquiring more rightwards spinal tilt (secondary axis tilt) - but his head doesn't drop backwards, and it has remained relatively stationary. Jeff.
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Feb 10, 2011 15:27:38 GMT -5
Yeah Greg... I see what you mean. I think 3Jack's problem was in excessive hip slide in May and that led to the inconsistencies. Nothing to do with the grip at all. Can't get over the posture, stance, grip and weight distribution compared to what I always considered conventional. Yet more and more golfers are giving this a try. Future of it's success is still looking very cloudy to me. Rand
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 10, 2011 15:38:44 GMT -5
Rand,
I agree that 3jacks pelvic slide was excessive in May 2010, and I would also have recommended that he correct that problem. However, I cannot understand why he couldn't moderate that excessive pelvic slide, and look more like Stuart Appleby (or Ben Hogan), rather than adopt a Foley/S&T type of pivot action. What I like about his May 2010 pelvic motion was its smooth rotational quality, which can occur naturally if one uses a rightwards-centralised backswing action.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 10, 2011 15:44:32 GMT -5
With Richie you know he has put in the time with several methods so he has the ability to assess whats worked well for him.
To many times I have Jeff tell me, look at Tiger Woods, he does this and you should as well (I used Tiger, could have been Hogan, Phil, Appleby etc)........when in reality that is not all that realistic, I can't move in any way like they do. I think thats the biggest fault of golf instruction is most teachers know one way, usually from a very conventional school of thought, and when that does not work they don't know what to do to fix a problem. I can't tell you how many times my instructor has had me do drill and it did not yield the desired result so we went to something else, sooner or later we find something that clicks.
Jeff says "its not what I would recommend it for any golfer"........never said you would Jeff, in fact I know you would not, but the point is teacher after teacher a great player and student of the game like Richie was suffering from that problem, now someone has helped him move to a better position. You see the difference right, the real world application is often more than a "you should do this" thing?
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 10, 2011 15:49:13 GMT -5
I cannot understand why he couldn't moderate that excessive pelvic slide, and look more like Stuart Appleby (or Ben Hogan) Think about this for a second Jeff. Richie, who has seen a number of instructors, seriously dedicated, hit balls and did everything he could to beat a problem, could not with your simple advice? What does that say? He is obviously talented and can whip both of us on the course. He is a studious student. Do you think maybe it was more complex than you are stating for him to overcome? I do. We are just all wired a little differently.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 10, 2011 16:00:10 GMT -5
Greg,
Your answer doesn't make sense to me. He made a swing change choice, but it doesn't mean that he explored all swing change choices. I think that his swing change choice was probably associated with a change in swing philosophy. That's OK! In my review paper of Sean Foley's swing methodology, I stated that the Foley centralised pivot action is an excellent swing methodology - compared to the traditional swing - and 3jack is free to choose that type of pivot action.
If you re-read my original post, I merely stated that I preferred the biomechanical smoothness/naturality of his previous pivot action.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 10, 2011 16:02:45 GMT -5
You said "why he couldn't"................my contention is that he did.
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Post by richie3jack on Feb 10, 2011 16:24:34 GMT -5
I disagree with Jeff’s assertions because from my experience with my own swing, the current swing feels much more fluid and much more natural.
‘3jack may argue that he is getting better, and more consistent, ball flight with his latest swing’
I think that’s really the main point. Regardless of biomechanical style. That’s why golfers work on their golf swing, to hit the ball more accurately, with more precision and power. All of which I’ve accomplished in just 4 months.
When I think of your assertion of ‘not as smooth/fluid and natural’, my way of defining it is that it’s something very hard to do for the golfer. Not that I think that is always wrong, I’m sure when Hogan changed his swing he really had to work at it as well and it wasn’t a seamless adjustment.
But the centralized pivot was actually very easy to make and not at all of a problem. In fact, getting the pivot more centered is when my ballstriking really started to improve. I’ll get to that in a moment.
Where I’ve had a tougher time is in the takeaway. You see, I used a RFT under Ted Fort and it worked pretty well. Stopped working with Ted and went to more of a 1 piece takeaway, mainly because I felt that most great golfers didn’t have their right forearm on plane at address. Now with what I’m learning is more like the RFT with some adjustments. But since I abandoned the RFT for awhile, getting this takeaway took awhile. And I still need to do some work on this takeaway (from Face On view it’s fine, DTL it’s still a little too far inside).
But what I would do was I would get to p1.9 and the hands would be too far outside and then I would jerk the hands inward to p3. That threw off my rhythm. So the takeaway was the only thing that was very unnatural for me and I’m still working on it.
As far as the centered pivot goes, it’s basically my same pivot action, I just feel like I’m keeping the left shoulder low in the backswing. Why? Because I’m more striving to *feel* like I’m keeping the left shoulder low and left in the downswing so I can get the shoulders to turn perpendicular to the spine in the downswing.
That’s it.
And with the centered pivot, my backswing is no longer too long, so I stay on plane and I don’t get out of sequence. I can also feel like I stand up more into perfect balance at my finish. My balance has greatly improved.
Although I’m hitting a driver in the old swing and an iron from yesterday’s swing, the rate of closure and the overtaking rates have greatly slowed down.
As far as the pelvic thrust, it’s something George and I have discussed as to its importance. But I don’t actively try and thrust the pelvis and that pelvic thrust doesn’t feel unnatural at all when we go over it in the lesson. In fact, not thrusting the pelvis feels more weird than anything.
As far as hip slide goes, my current swing doesn’t have a problem with hip slide. The old swing had a problem with it, but that’s not really where the problem was. The old swing the CoG’s never moved forward nearly enough in the downswing. Why? Because I moved them off the ball to much in the backswing. Some people, like John Erickson…can move the CoG’s off the ball in the backswing and return them in the downswing. I cannot.
In fact, that old swing with the big move off the ball got that ‘reverse hips’ look at the top of the swing. New swing doesn’t have that problem.
So what would happen in the old swing is that since my CoG’s weren’t moving forward, I would just rotate. And I couldn’t get any ‘weight’ on my left leg so when my leg straightened, the hips wouldn’t open. Completely different story now.
All of those ‘classical’ things instructors tend to like are prevalent in the new swing. Much more arm extension in the follow thru (which I do without trying), hands further foreward at p6, more lag, etc. Ball sounds much better coming off the clubface as well.
3JACK
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Post by walther on Feb 10, 2011 17:35:50 GMT -5
Richie -- Could you speak briefly about your distance gains, if any, from last May to present?
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Post by wedgey on Feb 10, 2011 17:44:57 GMT -5
I disagree with Jeff’s assertions because from my experience with my own swing, the current swing feels much more fluid and much more natural. ‘3jack may argue that he is getting better, and more consistent, ball flight with his latest swing’I think that’s really the main point. Regardless of biomechanical style. That’s why golfers work on their golf swing, to hit the ball more accurately, with more precision and power. All of which I’ve accomplished in just 4 months. When I think of your assertion of ‘not as smooth/fluid and natural’, my way of defining it is that it’s something very hard to do for the golfer. Not that I think that is always wrong, I’m sure when Hogan changed his swing he really had to work at it as well and it wasn’t a seamless adjustment. But the centralized pivot was actually very easy to make and not at all of a problem. In fact, getting the pivot more centered is when my ballstriking really started to improve. I’ll get to that in a moment. Where I’ve had a tougher time is in the takeaway. You see, I used a RFT under Ted Fort and it worked pretty well. Stopped working with Ted and went to more of a 1 piece takeaway, mainly because I felt that most great golfers didn’t have their right forearm on plane at address. Now with what I’m learning is more like the RFT with some adjustments. But since I abandoned the RFT for awhile, getting this takeaway took awhile. And I still need to do some work on this takeaway (from Face On view it’s fine, DTL it’s still a little too far inside). But what I would do was I would get to p1.9 and the hands would be too far outside and then I would jerk the hands inward to p3. That threw off my rhythm. So the takeaway was the only thing that was very unnatural for me and I’m still working on it. As far as the centered pivot goes, it’s basically my same pivot action, I just feel like I’m keeping the left shoulder low in the backswing. Why? Because I’m more striving to *feel* like I’m keeping the left shoulder low and left in the downswing so I can get the shoulders to turn perpendicular to the spine in the downswing. That’s it. And with the centered pivot, my backswing is no longer too long, so I stay on plane and I don’t get out of sequence. I can also feel like I stand up more into perfect balance at my finish. My balance has greatly improved. Although I’m hitting a driver in the old swing and an iron from yesterday’s swing, the rate of closure and the overtaking rates have greatly slowed down. As far as the pelvic thrust, it’s something George and I have discussed as to its importance. But I don’t actively try and thrust the pelvis and that pelvic thrust doesn’t feel unnatural at all when we go over it in the lesson. In fact, not thrusting the pelvis feels more weird than anything. As far as hip slide goes, my current swing doesn’t have a problem with hip slide. The old swing had a problem with it, but that’s not really where the problem was. The old swing the CoG’s never moved forward nearly enough in the downswing. Why? Because I moved them off the ball to much in the backswing. Some people, like John Erickson…can move the CoG’s off the ball in the backswing and return them in the downswing. I cannot. In fact, that old swing with the big move off the ball got that ‘reverse hips’ look at the top of the swing. New swing doesn’t have that problem. So what would happen in the old swing is that since my CoG’s weren’t moving forward, I would just rotate. And I couldn’t get any ‘weight’ on my left leg so when my leg straightened, the hips wouldn’t open. Completely different story now. All of those ‘classical’ things instructors tend to like are prevalent in the new swing. Much more arm extension in the follow thru (which I do without trying), hands further foreward at p6, more lag, etc. Ball sounds much better coming off the clubface as well. 3JACK Yeah, that's all good Richie but it doesn't "look" as smooth or as natural aren't you going to fix that? ...lol.
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