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Post by cjselbyspink on Jan 22, 2024 3:08:39 GMT -5
This forum and the progolfswingreview.net website and video projects are a revelation. I'm about ten months in to learning golf and have been confused by overly simplistic and contradictory (or just incorrect) advice elsewhere that just didn't seem to work in practice. I've clarified a very great deal here and vastly improved my golf swing and ball flight outcomes.
One question remains that I can't seem to find a paper or existing thread on is grip pressure. Not grip "strength" as in shaft rotation at address, but rather literally how firmly to hold on to - apply pressure to - the club handle.
So far as I can see, the coaching consensus is "lighter than you think". Dan Grieve for example suggests 3/10 grip pressure. Just enough to stop the club sliding through your hands if you hold it vertically, club head uppermost.
Some other coaches, such as Jordan Bazzone, suggest a firmer pressure, eg 7/10. Particularly in order to withstand the requirement to start the downswing with sufficient speed. Bazzone suggests that even those golfers who think they grip lightly, in fact necessarily firm up, perhaps without realising, at the point of transition at the top of the swing.
My own experience suggests that a looser 3/10 grip can make it harder to maintain radial deviation (or minimise excessive ulnar deviation) at the top of the swing. But it may be that I simply haven't mastered separating grip pressure from wrist-set stability as biomechanical concepts yet. Grip pressure doesn't seem to affect rotational stability in terms of pronation or supination, presumably because this in fact is determined further up the arm in the forearm and shoulder.
What do you recommend? Does weaker pressure make for flippier swings (my biggest problem I'm tackling at the moment, mostly due to hip spinning because I was using my glutes too much to rotate, I think). Or does looser grip in fact promote better swing mechanics, because the body is more lithe and loose? Is there an inflexion point or threshold where more (or less) grip pressure becomes undesirable?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 22, 2024 11:14:09 GMT -5
This forum and the progolfswingreview.net website and video projects are a revelation. I'm about ten months in to learning golf and have been confused by overly simplistic and contradictory (or just incorrect) advice elsewhere that just didn't seem to work in practice. I've clarified a very great deal here and vastly improved my golf swing and ball flight outcomes. One question remains that I can't seem to find a paper or existing thread on is grip pressure. Not grip "strength" as in shaft rotation at address, but rather literally how firmly to hold on to - apply pressure to - the club handle. So far as I can see, the coaching consensus is "lighter than you think". Dan Grieve for example suggests 3/10 grip pressure. Just enough to stop the club sliding through your hands if you hold it vertically, club head uppermost. Some other coaches, such as Jordan Bazzone, suggest a firmer pressure, eg 7/10. Particularly in order to withstand the requirement to start the downswing with sufficient speed. Bazzone suggests that even those golfers who think they grip lightly, in fact necessarily firm up, perhaps without realising, at the point of transition at the top of the swing. My own experience suggests that a looser 3/10 grip can make it harder to maintain radial deviation (or minimise excessive ulnar deviation) at the top of the swing. But it may be that I simply haven't mastered separating grip pressure from wrist-set stability as biomechanical concepts yet. Grip pressure doesn't seem to affect rotational stability in terms of pronation or supination, presumably because this in fact is determined further up the arm in the forearm and shoulder. What do you recommend? Does weaker pressure make for flippier swings (my biggest problem I'm tackling at the moment, mostly due to hip spinning because I was using my glutes too much to rotate, I think). Or does looser grip in fact promote better swing mechanics, because the body is more lithe and loose? Is there an inflexion point or threshold where more (or less) grip pressure becomes undesirable? I strongly believe in maintaining a very firm grip pressure (6/10 - 7/10) with the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers of the lead hand. I believe that the grip pressure should be firm enough so that another person cannot possibly pull the club handle out of the lead hand. It is important to understand that one should only use the finger flexor muscles (flexor digitorum profundus) to firmly grip the club handle with those 3 fingers, and that the other forearm muscles must be very relaxed and tension-free so that there is no impedance to lead wrist motions in the plane of radial => ulnar deviation and no impedance to the lower forearm motions of pronation-supination. The trail hand's grip pressure should be very light and only involve the 3rd and 4th fingers. The 2nd finger should be the trigger finger and the 5th finger will overlap the lead hand's 4th/5th finger area if one uses a Vardon grip style. Jeff.
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Post by cjselbyspink on Jan 22, 2024 18:29:59 GMT -5
Thank you. Most clear. Regarding wrist lag, I read the article at perfectgolfswingreview.net/casting.htmMy experience is that I have quite flexible wrists laterally, so can get the club past 90 degrees with ease without flexing the wrist or "cheating" to increase the angle. I find I have to consciously resist the club angle closing too much as I approach transition, in order to retain some space for lag to develop passively in the downswing without inducing premature casting. Using the hack motion sensor I can see ulnar deviation moves from around -20º at address to around +20 at P3.5. Ulnar Dev then continues to increase in the transition and downswing by another few degrees until just after P6 when it rapidly decreases with release. The absolute values vary depending on calibrating the device but the relative change is consistent. This pattern resembles that which they provide for Andrew "Beef" Johnston. The model "Scott Kowx" pattern Hack Motion provides however suggests ulnar dev starts at -38, peaks at -11 and stays at -11 from around P3 to P6. No further wrist lag develops therefore between the wrists setting in the backswing, through transition and the downswing until the point of release. There is no increase in ulnar deviation between the top of the swing and immediately before the point of release. Again,the absolute values are somewhat arbitrary depending on calibration, but the delta should be consistent. Do you think this difference is significant? Do I just have more wrist rad/uln flexibility? Or might I be inducing a compensation elsewhere that is undesirable? It seems like more ulnar deviation is better, generally speaking, because it means more lag and therefore greater distance for the club head to travel between P6 and P7 and therefore faster club head speed. So long as it doesn't induce early release before P6 because the wrists have "bottomed out" and have no further ulnar range of motion, and so long as one isn't just cheating be flexing the wrist rather than actually ulnar deviating. Is this correct?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 22, 2024 22:46:48 GMT -5
Thank you. Most clear. Regarding wrist lag, I read the article at perfectgolfswingreview.net/casting.htmMy experience is that I have quite flexible wrists laterally, so can get the club past 90 degrees with ease without flexing the wrist or "cheating" to increase the angle. I find I have to consciously resist the club angle closing too much as I approach transition, in order to retain some space for lag to develop passively in the downswing without inducing premature casting. Using the hack motion sensor I can see ulnar deviation moves from around -20º at address to around +20 at P3.5. Ulnar Dev then continues to increase in the transition and downswing by another few degrees until just after P6 when it rapidly decreases with release. The absolute values vary depending on calibrating the device but the relative change is consistent. This pattern resembles that which they provide for Andrew "Beef" Johnston. The model "Scott Kowx" pattern Hack Motion provides however suggests ulnar dev starts at -38, peaks at -11 and stays at -11 from around P3 to P6. No further wrist lag develops therefore between the wrists setting in the backswing, through transition and the downswing until the point of release. There is no increase in ulnar deviation between the top of the swing and immediately before the point of release. Again,the absolute values are somewhat arbitrary depending on calibration, but the delta should be consistent. Do you think this difference is significant? Do I just have more wrist rad/uln flexibility? Or might I be inducing a compensation elsewhere that is undesirable? It seems like more ulnar deviation is better, generally speaking, because it means more lag and therefore greater distance for the club head to travel between P6 and P7 and therefore faster club head speed. So long as it doesn't induce early release before P6 because the wrists have "bottomed out" and have no further ulnar range of motion, and so long as one isn't just cheating be flexing the wrist rather than actually ulnar deviating. Is this correct? I personally don't trust Hack Motion measurements of ulnar-radial deviation in terms of absolute values. So, I don't know why you get 20 degrees of radial deviation at P3.5 when HackMotion's Wrist Option A pattern only gets to -11 degrees at P3/P4 (which implies that the lead wrist is not even radially deviated at P4). However, you do get a ~40 degrees change between P1 => P4 and I presume a similar amount of change between P4 => P7. His change is also ~39 degrees (from -28 to +11), which is similar to your relative measurement in terms of changed values.
The change is ~34 degrees from P4 => P7. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's ulnar/radial deviation graphs. The red graph shows a ~60 degrees change between P4 => P6 (although he has no radial deviation at P4 presumably due to a different method of cailbrating the zero measurement) because he has a very flexible lead wrist in the plane of radial => ulnar deviation.
Your ~40 degrees of relative change is probably an "average" value for a flexible PGA tour golfer.
You wrote-: "It seems like more ulnar deviation is better, generally speaking, because it means more lag and therefore greater distance for the club head to travel between P6 and P7 and therefore faster club head speed. So long as it doesn't induce early release before P6 because the wrists have "bottomed out" and have no further ulnar range of motion, and so long as one isn't just cheating be flexing the wrist rather than actually ulnar deviating. Is this correct?" I presume that you mean radial deviation, and not ulnar deviation, and that you are referring to the P4 => P5.5 time period. I do agree that the more clubhead lag (due to more lead wrist deviation in a radial direction) that one has at P5.5, the faster the potential clubhead speed at impact because it means that there is going to be a greater magnitude of PA#2 release between P5.5 => P7.
Here is Jamie Sadlowski's clubhead lag at P5.5. Note how much clubhead lag he has at position 3.
I have no idea what you mean when you wrote "the wrists have bottomed out".
I also cannot understand how one cheat by flexing the lead wrist because the plane of lead wrist flexion is roughly at a right angle to the plane of lead wrist radial => ulnar deviation. Jeff.
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Post by cjselbyspink on Jan 23, 2024 0:55:14 GMT -5
Jeff,
Thank you. That answers my question very helpfully and clarified the issue for me. I'm not surprised to discover I do not in fact have abnormally flexible wrists versus PGA professionals!
You are quite right, I had my ulna and my radius confused (I was referring, as you inferred, to the left arm)
With regards to "bottoming out", this was my attempt to describe the phenomenon at the top of the backswing where if your left wrist is maximally radially deviated, with no space at all to move any further, the transition motion can tend to "throw" the club head and cause an early release. Perhaps though this only occurs if the initial hand motion is imperfect and tends away from the target rather than directly vertically downwards.
"Cheating" is my attempt to describe the fact that, when viewed in a 2D plane such as a face on camera, it is possible to reduce the apparent angle between the left forearm and the club shaft at the top of the swing by - in addition to radial deviation - flexing the left wrist. I understand this to be very undesirable as it destroys the left-flying wedge and throws the club face angle off.
Chris
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 23, 2024 10:42:38 GMT -5
Jeff, Thank you. That answers my question very helpfully and clarified the issue for me. I'm not surprised to discover I do not in fact have abnormally flexible wrists versus PGA professionals! You are quite right, I had my ulna and my radius confused (I was referring, as you inferred, to the left arm) With regards to "bottoming out", this was my attempt to describe the phenomenon at the top of the backswing where if your left wrist is maximally radially deviated, with no space at all to move any further, the transition motion can tend to "throw" the club head and cause an early release. Perhaps though this only occurs if the initial hand motion is imperfect and tends away from the target rather than directly vertically downwards. "Cheating" is my attempt to describe the fact that, when viewed in a 2D plane such as a face on camera, it is possible to reduce the apparent angle between the left forearm and the club shaft at the top of the swing by - in addition to radial deviation - flexing the left wrist. I understand this to be very undesirable as it destroys the left-flying wedge and throws the club face angle off. Chris You wrote-: "With regards to "bottoming out", this was my attempt to describe the phenomenon at the top of the backswing where if your left wrist is maximally radially deviated, with no space at all to move any further, the transition motion can tend to "throw" the club head and cause an early release. Perhaps though this only occurs if the initial hand motion is imperfect and tends away from the target rather than directly vertically downwards." Regarding your bold-highlighted statement it is in fact normal for the lead hand to move away from the target between P4 => P5. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's hand arc path motion between P4 => P5. Image 1 is at P4 and image 2 is at P5. I have drawn a blue line between his lead shoulder socket and his lead hand, and I have drawn a yellow line between his trail shoulder socket and his lead hand.
I have also drawn small red circular markers over his shoulder sockets at P4 and small green circular markers over his shoulder sockets at P5. You can see that his lead shoulder socket has moved a lot targetwards between P4 => P5 and that causes his lead hand to move from position A to position B - which means that his lead hand is moving away from the target just as much as it is moving groundwards. However, that does not lead to casting and an early release of the club.
You also wrote-: "Cheating" is my attempt to describe the fact that, when viewed in a 2D plane such as a face on camera, it is possible to reduce the apparent angle between the left forearm and the club shaft at the top of the swing by - in addition to radial deviation - flexing the left wrist. I understand this to be very undesirable as it destroys the left-flying wedge and throws the club face angle off."
By reducing the angle and the clubshaft I presume that you are talking about the clubhead lag angle in the plane of lead wrist radial => ulnar deviation at P4. If my presumption is correct, then increasing the degree of lead wrist flexion will likely decrease the clubhead lag angle while increasing the degree of lead wrist extension will make it easier to increase the clubhead lag angle. Jamie Sadlowski can get a greater amount of clubhead lag angle at P4 by extending his lead wrist without it significantly causing his clubshaft to change it angle relative to the lead arm and without it significantly changing his clubface angle relative to the clubhead path - see the images above. By the way, Jamie uses a very strong lead hand grip, which means that he does not use the intact LFFW golf swing technique.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 10:09:51 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Looking at Jamie Sadlowski , is he a reverse foot golfer?
I found a video which seems to suggest this is the case (see 11:00 -12:09), although he thinks that he may have had a left ankle injury at the time that the COP was measured (and may have been protecting it by not putting too much weight pressure on it).
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 12:57:57 GMT -5
Dr Mann Looking at Jamie Sadlowski , is he a reverse foot golfer? I found a video which seems to suggest this is the case (see 11:00 -12:09), although he thinks that he may have had a left ankle injury at the time that the COP was measured (and may have been protecting it by not putting too much weight pressure on it). DG I always suspected that Jamie Sadlowki is a reverse foot golfer, and these COP measurements confirm that fact. Jeff.
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janik
Full Member
Posts: 143
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Post by janik on Jan 24, 2024 19:03:07 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann,
I find it confusing and contradictory that JS can have a circular hand path from P4 to P5 without causing a casting issue regardless of the biomechanical means of achieving such a hand path. Your clarification would be appreciated.
Thanks Janik
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 19:43:33 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann, I find it confusing and contradictory that JS can have a circular hand path from P4 to P5 without causing a casting issue regardless of the biomechanical means of achieving such a hand path. Your clarification would be appreciated. Thanks Janik All pro golfers who get their lead arm to 11 - 12 o'clock at P4 will have a hand arc path that is partially away from the target between P4 => P5 when the lead arm moves from the 11 o'clock position to the 9 o'clock position. Here is another example - featuring Dustin Johnson. Note how his upper torso is rotating counterclockwise between P4 (image 1) => P5 (image 2) and how much the lead shoulder socket moves targetwards. That will cause the lead arm to be pulled down so that it becomes parallel to the ground at P5. Why should that motion of the lead arm predispose to casting if the right upper arm is simultaneously adducted using a pitch elbow motion of the trail arm while keeping the trail elbow bent to roughly the same degree - thereby allowing the trail hand to work as a positive hand couple? Here are the forces operating at the level of the club handle that keep the clubhead lag angle unchanged between P4 => P5.
Look at the club motion between P4 => P5 when the lead hand is moving downwards and also slightly away from the target as it moves down the hand arc path. The short black arrow shows the direction of pull as the lead hand pulls the club handle down the hand arc path between P4 => P5. The dotted line that is straight-line-aligned with the black arrow is an extension of that black arrow line. The COM of the club wants to line up with that dotted line, which means that it wants to rotate clockwise (see green circular arrow) in a jack-knifing manner. What prevents that happening is the fact that the trail hand is working as a positive hand couple to prevent that jack-knifing tendency by providing enough positive push-force in an across-the-shaft direction to prevent any jack-knifing and to keep the clubhead lag angle unchanged. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 19:54:55 GMT -5
I've found another video regarding grip pressure sensors where Paul Wison tested them out himself. From P4, the lead hand grip pressure is dominant and it is typical (in pro golfers) for it to peak around P5 and then generally drops to P7 . The trail hand follows the same pattern (with less grip pressure than the lead hand), but it drops more rapidly from P5-P7.
The developer of the sensor showed the graphs from 14:12 - 15:34
This is something, I tried to do last summer and found that my errant strikes decreased appreciably when I softened my trail hand grip pressure, especially from P6 -P7.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 20:04:39 GMT -5
I've found another video regarding grip pressure sensors where Paul Wison tested them out himself. From P4, the lead hand grip pressure is dominant and it is typical (in pro golfers) for it to peak around P5 and then generally drops to P7 . The trail hand follows the same pattern (with less grip pressure than the lead hand), but it drops more rapidly from P5-P7. The developer of the sensor showed the graphs from 14:12 - 15:34 This is something, I tried to do last summer and found that my errant strikes decreased appreciably when I softened my trail hand grip pressure, especially from P6 -P7. DG Those pressure readings make sense for a TGM swinging action where PA#4 is released between P4 => P5.5 and where PA#2 is released between P5.5 => P7 while the trail hand couple becomes negative after P5.5. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 20:06:11 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann, I find it confusing and contradictory that JS can have a circular hand path from P4 to P5 without causing a casting issue regardless of the biomechanical means of achieving such a hand path. Your clarification would be appreciated. Thanks Janik May have been coincidence, but I've always had a problem (from a purely physics perspective) trying to understand why JS doesn't cast early and raised a thread about this quite a while ago. newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/769/jamie-sadlowskis-club-releasing-earlyYou might wish to check it out but we probably need more research/data about the forces and torques applied by each hand in the golf swing to determine what is actually happening (grip pressure data is insufficient). DG PS. Those black arrows in Dr Kwon's diagram is the 'Net' in plane force applied by both hands , not just the lead hand. Theoretically, Dr Mann's explanation is a valid opinion but no-one can be categorically certain until more research is done.
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Post by cjselbyspink on Jan 24, 2024 22:50:32 GMT -5
Thank you for linking the previous thread.
The main aspect I personally took from it at the moment was the Sergio Garcia photos, where it seems clear to me his wrist is not maximally radially deviated at P4, because the angle between shaft and forearm seems even more acute by ~P5.
I need to experiment myself, but think this means I don't need to worry about developing more radial deviation in the initial phase of the downswing.
That, or I've just confused myself further!
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 24, 2024 23:35:13 GMT -5
I still find it 'mind boggling' looking at JS's swing, how he doesn't early cast. Here is his swing from a back view Here are some screen images where I have guessed the 'direction' (I haven't a clue about the magnitude) of some net force in images 1-5 applied via the hands (see the little red arrows at the grip of the club). The direction of those arrows will 'more or less' cause the COM of the club (red dot) to move from image 1 to 5. How on earth can those red arrow net force directions across the grip be created when his hands are moving down and out? It just doesn't seem possible for him to anatomically recreate such a force. Further, because the shaft is in backward bend, this means he is applying a positive torque (clockwise from this back view) about the mid-hand-point. And if he is applying a positive torque , why isn't the club releasing it's lag angle? In fact, when you look at JS's wrist graph, he increases his lead wrist radial deviation slightly in the early downswing increasing lag. Could he be actively holding/increasing the lag angle using his wrists while the club and arms are being rotated in space as a single unit by his upper body pivot? Inverse dynamics cannot confirm if that particular scenario is happening because all they are doing is working out the forces that need to move the club in space. Theoretically , all they do is look at snapshot high frequency images of the club (without the golfer) on a computer and work out all the forces and couples required (at and about the mid-hand-point) to cause its movement in the golf swing. I doubt he is holding lag as above, therefore he must be creating that net force (to be transmitted via his arms and hands onto the grip) using some other kinematic movement, while also applying a positive torque about the mid-hand-point. The net effect , will stop the club releasing its lag angle from image 1-5 , and in JS's case, it increases lag by a small amount. Whatever it is, I cannot figure it out. DG PS. What about protraction of his right scapula? Can that independently push on the whole bent right 'arm/hand/club grip' in the direction of those red arrows from image 3-5? Image 1 net force force could simply be a part of a stopping torque by the left and right hands (ie. end of range of movement of the wrists at P4). The club wishes to continue to rotate in the backswing against the momentary static left/right wrists. We then have a small rebound effect of the shaft bend that could provide some impetus between image 1 and 2. Then from image 3-5 the increasing protraction of his right scapula might get involved. Still all guesswork !
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