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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 25, 2011 12:57:34 GMT -5
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Post by golfmeister on Mar 25, 2011 15:31:42 GMT -5
Didn't Richie explain why? I'm sure i read why Richie says that, more than a few times.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 25, 2011 15:55:22 GMT -5
If you understand, and agree with 3jack's explanation, then you should be able to provide the "reasoning" in a post. I would be interested in reading, and analyzing, your explanation.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Mar 25, 2011 16:58:59 GMT -5
I've seen Ritchie make that statement several times on various forums but I've never seen him give an explanation. I would guess it's a morad grip.
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Post by richie3jack on Mar 25, 2011 20:41:28 GMT -5
He is/was gripping it in the palm of the left hand. He's got a lot of #3 PA. Very difficult to roll that much #3 PA in you grip it in the palm of the left hand. Some can do it, but what was Tiger's miss during the Haney era? The block right. Caused by what? Open face at impact.
3JACK
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Mar 25, 2011 20:52:09 GMT -5
He is/was gripping it in the palm of the left hand. He's got a lot of #3 PA. Very difficult to roll that much #3 PA in you grip it in the palm of the left hand. Some can do it, but what was Tiger's miss during the Haney era? The block right. Caused by what? Open face at impact. 3JACK Where did you see him gripping the club "in the palm of the left hand" any differently than he has in the past? Rand
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Post by richie3jack on Mar 25, 2011 22:06:32 GMT -5
He is/was gripping it in the palm of the left hand. He's got a lot of #3 PA. Very difficult to roll that much #3 PA in you grip it in the palm of the left hand. Some can do it, but what was Tiger's miss during the Haney era? The block right. Caused by what? Open face at impact. 3JACK Where did you see him gripping the club "in the palm of the left hand" any differently than he has in the past? Rand Haney teaches it to all of his students and said that he taught it to Tiger in their first lesson. Tiger's grip also got weaker under Haney than from Butch. Theoretically, one could have a 'strong grip' and grip it in the palm, but that would require some manipulation I believe. Typically if you start going to more in the palm...grip gets weaker. More in the fingers....grip gets stronger. So Haney says Tiger did it and his grip got weaker, thus the conclusion that Tiger was/is gripping it in the palm of his left hand. Nicklaus says he grips it in the palm of his left hand (sometimes these pros think they do something and actually do something different, that may be the case with Nicklaus). But Nicklaus has a lot less #3 PA in his swing...thus he could theoretically grip the club in the palm and be great. It's really a compatibility issue. It wouldn't surprise me if Tiger has changed it because I know iteachgolf is very big into compatibility and has said in the past that he felt Tiger needs to change the grip a bit. 3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 25, 2011 22:30:53 GMT -5
Rich,
You wrote-: "Theoretically, one could have a 'strong grip' and grip it in the palm, but that would require some manipulation I believe. Typically if you start going to more in the palm...grip gets weaker. More in the fingers....grip gets stronger."
I don't understand the reason why you believe that grip strength has anything to with whether one adopts a finger grip versus a low palmar versus a mid-palmar grip pattern. Can you provide your biomechanical reasoning?
I believe that grip strength primarily depends on the degree of left humeral internal rotation and left forearm pronation adopted at address.
You also stated that Nicklaus has less PA#3 in his swing. What do you believe are the biomechanical factors that determine how much PA#3 release an individual golfer has in his individual swing action?
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 26, 2011 11:13:53 GMT -5
Haney flat out said he weakened it, how is secondary to whether he has restrengthened it.
Haney did provide a reason for changing it and it had to do with Tigers left leg injury and trying to avoid hooking it.
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jeffy
Full Member
Posts: 129
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Post by jeffy on Mar 27, 2011 11:31:35 GMT -5
I can think of a couple of very good reasons for this advice. First, Tiger played his best with a stronger grip and, if he were to go back in the Butch direction, which I think he should, he should re-adopt his old grip. Second, Trevino suggested that Tiger strengthen his grip and hit a "hold off" fade with his driver, which is how Trevino played. Trevino is someone I'd listen to.
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Mar 27, 2011 13:32:56 GMT -5
Agree with jeffy about the hold off fade... Tiger seems to be going down a swing change to nowhere. I have been proven wrong by this guy for many years and probably this time too but he sure looks out of whack now. Remember Ralph Guldahl?
Ralph Guldahl From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ralph Guldahl
Personal information Full name Ralph J. Guldahl Born November 22, 1911 Dallas, Texas Died June 11, 1987 (aged 75) Sherman Oaks, California Height 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) Weight 175 lb (79 kg; 12.5 st) Nationality United States Spouse Laverne Children Ralph Jr. Career College None Turned professional 1931 Former tour(s) PGA Tour Professional wins 16 Number of wins by tour PGA Tour 16 Best results in Major Championships (Wins: 3) Masters Tournament Won: 1939 U.S. Open Won: 1937, 1938 The Open Championship T11: 1937 PGA Championship T3: 1940 Achievements and awards World Golf Hall of Fame 1981 (member page) Ralph J. Guldahl (November 22, 1911 – June 11, 1987) was an American professional golfer who was one of the top players in the sport for three years in the late 1930s. Guldahl was born in Dallas, Texas. A 1930 graduate of Dallas' Woodrow Wilson High School,[1] he started playing on the professional tournament circuit in 1931 and won an event in his rookie season. In 1933, at the age of 21, he went into the last hole of the U.S. Open tied for the lead with Johnny Goodman. A par would have taken him into a playoff, but he made bogey and finished second. After further frustrating failures Guldahl quit the sport temporarily in 1935 and became a car salesman. He made a comeback part way through the 1936 PGA Tour season. He won the prestigious Western Open and finished second on the money list. He went on to win the Western Open in 1937 and 1938 as well. Guldahl won three major championships. He claimed the U.S. Open title in 1937 and 1938. He became the last person to win the U.S. Open while wearing a necktie during play in 1938.[2] He was runner-up at the Masters in both 1937 and 1938, before taking that title in 1939. He played on the 1937 Ryder Cup team. Guldahl's game then fell apart and he did not win after 1940. Two-time PGA champion Paul Runyan commented, "It's the most ridiculous thing, really. He went from being temporarily the absolute best player in the world to one who couldn't play at all." One popular theory is that when he wrote an instructional book, he overanalyzed his swing and it fell apart. He played occasionally in the 1940s but then quit tournament golf for good and spent the rest of his working life as a club professional. In 1959, he became a golf instructor at Braemar Country Club in Tarzana, California, where he worked until his death in 1987. Guldahl was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1981. He died in Sherman Oaks, California. In 1989, Guldahl was inducted into the Woodrow Wilson High School Hall of Fame when it was created during the celebration of the school's 60th Anniversary.
Rand
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 7, 2011 20:22:53 GMT -5
3jack made the following comment in his 4/4/11 blog on Tiger's swing.
"Not only was that path too far inside-to-out, but the grip didn’t help matters much either as Haney has stated that he taught Tiger to grip the club in the palm of the left hand. The issue with Tiger is that with that much of an inside-to-out path, it usually causes the golfer to use a lot of #3 Power Accumulator (the rotation of the left hand and forearm in the swing). And if you have ever tried to practiced using a lot of #3 power accumulator with the club gripped in the palm of the left hand, it’s very difficult to square up the clubface at impact."
Why does 3jack believe i) that an inside-out clubhead path is causally associated with a lot of PA#3 use and ii) why does he believe that gripping the club in the palm makes it more difficult to square the clubface for a given degree of PA#3 use? I personally think that a palmar grip makes it more easier to time the clubface squaring phenomenon due to the release of PA#3.
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Apr 8, 2011 11:02:20 GMT -5
Why does 3jack believe i) that an inside-out clubhead path is causally associated with a lot of PA#3 use and ii) why does he believe that gripping the club in the palm makes it more difficult to square the clubface for a given degree of PA#3 use? I personally think that a palmar grip makes it more easier to time the clubface squaring phenomenon due to the release of PA#3. Jeff. If you're underplane, a lot of times the back of the left hand is rotated more clockwise than if you were on plane. At 10*, which is an extreme inside-to-out path, I think it would be very difficult to do that unless you have aimed your body well out to the right (which Tiger hasn't) and probably are trying to actively accomplish a path like that. Or, you have a lot of #3 PA. If you grip the club in the palm of the left hand, it requires more wrist flexibility and strength to release the #3 PA. Nicklaus supposedly gripped it in the left palm as well, but he had a lot less #3 PA than Tiger. Supposedly, Haney told Tiger to grip it into the left palm so he wouldn't hook it. I can buy into that. I had heard reports that Tiger really hates missing with an over-draw or a hook for whatever reason. Heard this years ago. Heard that's why he started to think about leaving Harmon. And if the grip is in the palm of the left hand, it's hard to square the face and that leaves the face open, so now it's harder to hit an over-draw or a hook. Not impossible, but certainly harder. But, with all of that #3 PA and that palm grip, it led to a recipe for disaster. The first reports I heard of Tiger changing his grip was the Saturday of Bay Hill...about 2 days after the entire Dan Carraher/Sean Foley story broke. I think Foley never really thought much about the grip until Dan discussed it with him. I think Tiger with that palm grip, started getting his path more inside-to-out in order to combat the times he had an open face. Then when Foley changed some things, Tiger was still fighting the grip. I think Dan advised that they changed that as I know he's posted about the grip change and he is big on swing 'compatible parts.' And no, I've not really discussed any of this with Dan personally other than to wish him luck. I do know I've done Erickson's module 1 and that has a ton of #3 PA in order to do that module. Part of the purpose of that module is that's what Erickson wants (a lot of #3 PA), but it's also done so the golfer can figure out what grip works best for them. I don't know of any of his students that used a 'palm grip' doing that because it's so hard to square up the clubface and get any decent velocity. I think most of the student probably wind up using a strong grip, in the heel pad (because that's what they were taught). I think the easiest way to execute that much #3 PA would be a strong grip in the base of the fingers. I think John has had about 250 students, so the sample size is pretty good. I haven't watched Tiger in a full round, yet. But since the weekend of Bay Hill and the first round in the Masters, I don't think he's missing those tee shots dead right anymore. In fact, he's getting more of his misses left. I think the problem is he's struggling with fades because he's learning to hit up on the ball more with the driver and between Foley getting him to swing more left and Haney's swing more out to the right but downward, probably confusing him at this moment. 3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 8, 2011 13:27:20 GMT -5
3jack,
I disagree with some of your statements, which I believe have no biomechanical logic to support them.
You state-: "If you grip the club in the palm of the left hand, it requires more wrist flexibility and strength to release the #3 PA."
I believe that it doesn't require more strength to release PA#3 if a golfer adopts a low palmar grip (rather than a finger grip) because one is rotating the entire intact LAFW by exactly the same amount to get back to a neutral position at impact (presuming one had a neutral left arm/forearm at address). In fact, one could rationally argue that it requires less torque force to rotate the left forearm - because the amount of clubhead travel per unit degree of left forearm rotation is less when one adopts a palmar grip (rather than a finger grip).
You wrote-: "And if the grip is in the palm of the left hand, it's hard to square the face and that leaves the face open, so now it's harder to hit an over-draw or a hook. Not impossible, but certainly harder."
I believe that a low palmar grip does not make it harder to square the clubface by impact - for reasons supplied above.
You wrote-: "I haven't watched Tiger in a full round, yet. But since the weekend of Bay Hill and the first round in the Masters, I don't think he's missing those tee shots dead right anymore."
There are many causes of "missing tee shots dead right", and I have no reason to believe that any small change in Tiger's grip is playing a causal role. If a forum member believes that it is a major causal factor, then I would like to read his biomechanical explanation.
Jeff.
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Post by monkutare on Apr 8, 2011 18:30:28 GMT -5
Jeff.
Tiger is using a left hand grip that is not as you define a "low palmar grip"
If you had seen what his left hand grip looks like, he is employing what you probably would define as a mid palmar grip.
It is very hard to square the face, even with short shots, with this grip.
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