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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 27, 2011 9:49:18 GMT -5
Consider this 3jack thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2000Many forum members seemingly cannot understand what WdF means by the statement "moving the pelvis 45 degrees diagonally" and Natep even perceived it to mean that the left hemipelvis is rising up at a 45 degree angle to the ground. I think that WdF is only talking about the horizontal plane of motion, and the left pelvis will be moving ~45 degrees left-of-the target in the early downswing (during the hip squaring phase) because it is moving left-laterally at the same time as as the left pelvis being pushed/pulled back to the tush line - its overall vector of motion is about 45 degrees left-of-the -target. In other words, the pelvis is shifting and rotating at the same time. I disagree with many WdF statements. For example, in the traditional rightwards-centralised swing, I believe that one only pushes off the right foot to start the downswing pelvic motion, and the unweighted left hip gets driven back towards the tush line at the same time as it is pushed left-laterally towards the target - during this time period the left heel becomes increasingly weighted. I think that it is biomechanically incorrect to think of the left hip pushing at this time - I think that it is better to think of pulling the unweighted left pelvis back and-left while the right side is pushing off the right foot. WdF wrote-: "Many have referred to the area of the swing from the “furthest left point” through impact as “hitting into a firm left side”. I don’t see it that way at all. The left side does not firm up; indeed, it actually increases its speed with a tremendous snap of the left hip and knee backwards behind the golfer. The movement is unbroken and fluid, and depending on the power desired, can be extremely aggressive. This motion serves to make room for, and magnify the speed of the arms". I disagree! First of all, the the snapping of the left knee/pelvis occurs in the late downswing and it cannot make room for, and magnify the speed of the arms. PA#4 is released in the early part of the mid-downswing and any pelvic motion occurring in the late downswing can no longer affect the speed of release of PA#4. Secondly, I believe in the "firm supportive left side" idea, but it must occur in the mid-downswing, at the time when the hips become square, and the left foot increasingly weighted. As the left leg becomes increasingly weighted and braced, it offers increasing impedance to targetward motion of the pelvis, and it helps to ensure that the left pelvis moves back-and-left as one pivots over the stabilised/weighted left hip joint. WdF also wrote-: "By snapping the lower body back out of the way and hitting hard with the right side the hands and clubhead are encouraged to head left after impact, eliminating the tendency to steer the clubhead straight down the target line, an attempt that guarantees a significant loss of clubhead speed through impact, and makes long, straight driving an impossibility." I don't think that the hands move left after impact in a swinger because one is "hitting hard with the right side". I believe that the hands move inside-left after impact in a swinger because the golfer is rotating the torso inside-left while actively pulling with the left arm (like throwing a frisbee backhanded, or like performing a backhanded tennis stroke action). Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 27, 2011 12:48:05 GMT -5
Jeff, question for you, here is the top of my swing with a 5 iron, do you think this would be a centralized or a right centralized swing? Attachments:
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jeffy
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Post by jeffy on Mar 27, 2011 12:50:15 GMT -5
Consider the imperfectgolfer post above. I disagree with many of Jeff Mann's statements. For example, he wrote: . ..n the traditional rightwards-centralised swing, I believe that one only pushes off the right foot to start the downswing pelvic motion, and the unweighted left hip gets driven back towards the tush line at the same time as it is pushed left-laterally towards the target - during this time period the left heel becomes increasingly weighted. I think that it is biomechanically incorrect to think of the left hip pushing at this time - I think that it is better to think of pulling the unweighted left pelvis back and-left while the right side is pushing off the right foot.
Although pushing off the right foot is a conventional way of thinking about the start of the downswing pelvic motion, I believe it is incorrect and can lead to a host of swing problems. When viewed from behind using high-speed video, it can be seen that the first move of the downswing is a targetward movement of the sacrum that occurs well before the legs have moved:
Following this slight targetward move of the sacrum, I believe the left leg, which was internally rotated in the backswing, begins to externally rotate, which gives the appearance of the left knee leading the downswing. If a player "holds" the external rotation of the right leg, the simultaneous external rotation of the left leg leads to the famous "squat" look achieved by Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus:
Even though Jack is swinging all out in that swing, there is no "pushing" with right foot when the club is halfway down. In fact, instead of "pushing" with the right foot, the right leg is internally rotated to bring the right hip around.
Pushing with the right leg can cause excessive lateral movement of the pelvis and a resulting hip stall.
Jeff Mann also wrote:
...I believe in the "firm supportive left side" idea, but it must occur in the mid-downswing, at the time when the hips become square, and the left foot increasingly weighted. As the left leg becomes increasingly weighted and braced, it offers increasing impedance to targetward motion of the pelvis, and it helps to ensure that the left pelvis moves back-and-left as one pivots over the stabilised/weighted left hip joint.
This sounds to me like a prescription for stalled hips, reducing swingspeed and accuracy. If the left leg is externally rotated to its maximum, there will be no "targetward motion of the pelvis" that needs impeding. Bubba Watson's swing beautifully illustrates the correct target-side leg and hip action:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 27, 2011 12:53:09 GMT -5
Greg,
You look rightward-centralised, and maybe borderline vertical-centralised.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 27, 2011 12:55:06 GMT -5
Jeffy,
I am more inclined to follow this logic that you post, it seems to me there is the slight move with the sacrum and the external rotation of the left leg.
That external rotation, can that be taught? It seems very hard for me to do thus the distance between my legs never increases in the downswing like Sneads, or Mac's, Phil, I just slide.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 27, 2011 13:12:32 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "I am more inclined to follow this logic that you post, it seems to me there is the slight move with the sacrum and the external rotation of the left leg."
In the traditional swing, a golfer can push off the right foot as he dynamically loads the right foot at the start of the downswing. There is no significant motion of the right leg/hip in this action because the right leg is being dynamically loaded. The first sign of pelvic motion is a shifting and rotation of the pelvis. The movement of the sacrum targetwards is nothing more than a marker of central pelvic motion. The left knee moves in response to the pelvic motion. If you think about it more carefully than Jeffy, then you will realize that the left femur is actually undergoing an internal rotation movement, and not an external rotation movement, during the left hip clearing action. At the start of the pelvic motion (during the hip squaring phase), the left knee moves targetwards in response to the pelvic motion, and there is no significant change in the degree of rotation of the left femur (relative to the pelvis). In the second half of the downswing, as the pelvis becomes more open (relative to the target), the left femur is becoming progressively more internally rotated (relative to the pelvis).
Jeff.
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jeffy
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Post by jeffy on Mar 27, 2011 13:14:26 GMT -5
Jeffy, I am more inclined to follow this logic that you post, it seems to me there is the slight move with the sacrum and the external rotation of the left leg. That external rotation, can that be taught? It seems very hard for me to do thus the distance between my legs never increases in the downswing like Sneads, or Mac's, Phil, I just slide. Yes, it can be taught. My idol Kelvin has invented a brilliant device that teaches this move. I spent last week in Florida trying it out and love it. Contact Kelvin at speedchain@gmail.com, mention my name (Jeff Martin) and ask him if he can spare you one. Leg action will be the topic of his next article and will feature Hogan, Snead, Palmer and Nicklaus. One of the keys is to externally rotate the right hip fully in the backswing; look at Jack at the top: From there I try to "stride" the left leg like a baseball pitcher, and get the knees as wide as possible. Looking at the picture you posted, one thing I'd advise is to work on your backswing: it looks very short to me. Kelvin has a couple articles devoted to the backturn at his blog: www.aroundhawaii.com/speed_training.htmlLook at JB Holmes or Bubba Watson and try to get there. A fuller turn makes it easier to execute the downswing in the correct sequence. One thing that helped my turn immensely was a device called the Posture Pump (you can get it on eBay or Amazon; there is one for the back and one for the neck. My neck is fine so I only use the back one). It really increases your spine's range of motion.
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Post by natep on Mar 27, 2011 13:35:56 GMT -5
Jeff,
I didnt read the article, but look at this video at the 6:38 mark. WD draws an arrow 45 degrees when talking about the pelvis. If you watch his videos you will see him draw the same lines and make the same points about the pelvis in many if not most of them.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 27, 2011 22:24:36 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this still photo of Jack Nicklaus. He then stated-: "One of the keys is to externally rotate the right hip fully in the backswing; look at Jack at the top:" He still doesn't understand the issue. The right hip is internally rotated, and not externally rotated, in that photo - because it is a measure of the relationship between the femur and the pelvis, which is determined by the nature of the rotational movement of the femoral head within the acetabular socket. He is presumably referring to the clockwise rotation of the right pelvis (as viewed from above). Jeff.
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vince
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Post by vince on Mar 28, 2011 7:35:30 GMT -5
Jeff,
you wrote in the first thread: "I don't think that the hands move left after impact in a swinger because one is "hitting hard with the right side". I believe that the hands move inside-left after impact in a swinger because the golfer is rotating the torso inside-left while actively pulling with the left arm (like throwing a frisbee backhanded, or like performing a backhanded tennis stroke action)."
Could you please clarify the "pulling-with-the left-arm". I thought that the left-arm was inactive and is mainly thrown in orbit because of the transition and the pivot against a firm left side. The release of PA#2 and PA#3 are in a way automatic because of the centrifugal force (besides a little torque in the lef-underarm to get the leftarm straight). Do you mean pulling-with-the-left-arm, because the left-shoulder/back-muscles pull the left-arm. Or do you suggest muscles in the left arm (upper and under) pulling.?
thanks, Vince
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 28, 2011 9:11:28 GMT -5
Vince,
When I talk about "pulling of the left arm" post-impact (after the release of the PAs) I am referring to the effect that the movement of the left shoulder socket has on the directional motion of the left arm. Even though a golfer can move the left humerus independently within the left shoulder socket, the directional movement of the left shoulder socket has a major effect on the directional motion of the left arm. If a golfer rotates the upper torso very actively inside-left after impact, then it is very likely that the left arm will also be pulled inside-left as a result of the left shoulder socket's motion. The left shoulder girdle muscles play a synergistic role in golfers who choose to use a finish swivel action, by ensuring that the left humerus externally rotates more actively during the finish swivel phase of the swing. However, the "left arm pulling" phenomenon is primarily passive, and it is due to the inside-left movement of the left shoulder socket in space. Golfers who have upper torso stalling through the impact zone will more likely release their arms/clubshaft more down-the-line (CF-release action).
Jeff.
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vince
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Post by vince on Mar 28, 2011 9:56:22 GMT -5
Jeff,
Ok, thanks for the clarification and I think I understand. Although the analogy with the tennis stroke is a bit confusing because I use my arm-muscles to strike a tennisball. The pivot in tennis is nothing else then making room for my arm to strike. And with a frisbee, the pivot is also making room for my arms and wrist to release. In the golfswing I use my lowerbody first, followed by the upper to swing the passive left-arm and yes the direction of my left-shoulder socket gives direction to the ball. The funny thing is that after reading your thread about the left-arm-pulling I tried it on the range and using the left-arm muscles to pull the club, where the pivot only is used to make room, gave also good compression results.....(just like hitting with the right arm, but late in the downswing to have enough right-arm, the same with leftarm-muscle-pull.) But maybe this is what they mean with the difference between swinging with a pivot or swinging with the arms?
Vince
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 28, 2011 10:13:25 GMT -5
Vince, Pure left arm swinging is taught by Leslie King. www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/tuition/lesson11.htmlThe left arm is pulled by the shoulder girdle muscles and the pivot reacts to the arm motion. That is very different to an active pivot-induced swing - the standard TGM swinger's action. By the way, I throw a frisbee backhanded using my pivot to sling the lead arm forward. It can obviously also occur with a "pure" left arm slinging motion using a reactive pivot action. Jeff.
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vince
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Post by vince on Mar 28, 2011 10:21:41 GMT -5
Jeff,
thanks for your thoughts and clear clarification. I just read Leslie, but I will stick to TGM.
Vince
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jeffy
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Post by jeffy on Mar 28, 2011 11:17:36 GMT -5
Jeffy posted this still photo of Jack Nicklaus. He then stated-: "One of the keys is to externally rotate the right hip fully in the backswing; look at Jack at the top:" He still doesn't understand the issue. The right hip is internally rotated, and not externally rotated, in that photo - because it is a measure of the relationship between the femur and the pelvis, which is determined by the nature of the rotational movement of the femoral head within the acetabular socket. He is presumably referring to the clockwise rotation of the right pelvis (as viewed from above). Jeff. Nope, I'm refering to the clockwise rotation of the femur required to achieve that bowed out position of the right knee instead of a staic look, like Greg: Try it in a mirror and you'll see it.
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