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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 31, 2011 9:20:12 GMT -5
CG posted this video, which shows Hogan acquiring a bowed left wrist. Golfbulldog labelled it the Hogan secret. That is definitely not the Hogan "secret", or any secret! That is exactly the time when one would expect the GFLW to automatically/naturally become bowed - if one has a relaxed wrist. At that time (P6 position), the back of the GFLW is going to turn targetwards as it rounds the bend of the hand arc path due to a rotary motion of the left arm/forearm. If the GFLW is leading and pulling the club behind it, then one would expect it to most likely become bowed at that time point. You can see that same phenomenon in Sasho MacKenzie's lead arm-only swing. Here are still images from that video - reversed to present him as a right-handed golfer. Note how the GFLW is becoming bowed in image 3 - as the left arm-forearm starts to rotate counterclockwise targetwards. In a two-armed golfer, this phenomeon is synergistically assisted by the right forearm/palm as the right elbow starts to straighten from its pitch location alongside the right hip area - because this causes the right palm to also rotate targetwards. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 31, 2011 9:56:16 GMT -5
pretty good thread
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Post by candygram on Mar 31, 2011 9:57:06 GMT -5
Natep, I cannot understand why you believe that a golfer, who has a bent left wrist (dorsiflexed left wrist) at the end-backswing position, has undergone more left forearm pronation during his backswing action. I think that the presence of a bent left wrist doesn't alter the amount of left forearm pronation that occurs during the backswing. I can think of one possible reason why a disrupted LAFW due to a bent left wrist may make it more difficult to square the clubface by impact and that is due to a failure to complete the release swivel action (release of PA#3) by impact - because the club starts off above the plane of the LAFW at the start of the downswing and then has to align itself to get within the plane of the LAFW during the mid-downswing, so that a golfer can roll the intact LAFW during the late downswing. This idea comes from Sasho MacKenzie's theory that it takes less torque force to release PA#3 if the clubshaft is below plane, because the rotary torque will roll the clubshaft onto the plane of the LAFW when the left forearm supinates. people.stfx.ca/smackenz/swingplane.html By contrast, if the clubshaft is above plane, it has to roll in the opposite direction as the counterclockwise roll of the left forearm when the left forearm supinates, and it may result in an inefficient/incomplete release of PA#3 during the late downswing, which will result in an open clubface at impact. You also wrote -: "If Hogan was hooking the ball due to an over-supination of the left arm from a flat left wrist position at the top ---" I think That Hogan was hooking a lot in the 1930s when he didn't have a flat left wrist at the end-backswing position. His left wrist was bent and his clubshaft was across the line. Jeff. I think this explantion makes a lot of sense, even though I don't know what a "LAFW" is. Can you help me out here?
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Post by candygram on Mar 31, 2011 9:59:49 GMT -5
CG, You wrote-: "On a side note, although I agree that I've never seen Hogan with a cupped left wrist at impact, in another thread I saw pictures of Louis Oosthuizen with a cupped left wrist at the the top as well as at impact, so you can't say it never happens with professionals." A cupped left wrist at impact is possible in a professional golfer if the cupping is due to a GFLW or a very strong grip. I stated that I had never seen a "bent left wrist" in a skilled professional golfer at impact. You wrote-: "Hogan protested that he could hit the ball high any time he wanted to, and he'd take Larry out to the range and show him how to do it. The story goes that he told Nelson to cup his left wrist at the top and hold the cup throughout the downswing, and Nelson immediately started hitting the ball much higher." I would like to read a posited explanation for why a bent LW at the end-backswing position would produce a higher ball flight. Jeff. What I thought Hogan said was to cup the wrist, which lays back the face, and also to maintain the cup in the downswing. I assume both actions are required. Stan Utley says the same thing in order to hit high pitch shots.
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Post by candygram on Mar 31, 2011 10:03:28 GMT -5
CG posted this video, which shows Hogan acquiring a bowed left wrist. Golfbulldog labelled it the Hogan secret. That is definitely not the Hogan "secret", or any secret! That is exactly the time when one would expect the GFLW to automatically/naturally become bowed - if one has a relaxed wrist. At that time (P6 position), the back of the GFLW is going to turn targetwards as it rounds the bend of the hand arc path due to a rotary motion of the left arm/forearm. If the GFLW is leading and pulling the club behind it, then one would expect it to most likely become bowed at that time point. You can see that same phenomenon in Sasho MacKenzie's lead arm-only swing. Here are still images from that video - reversed to present him as a right-handed golfer. Note how the GFLW is becoming bowed in image 3 - as the left arm-forearm starts to rotate counterclockwise targetwards. In a two-armed golfer, this phenomeon is synergistically assisted by the right forearm/palm as the right elbow starts to straighten from its pitch location alongside the right hip area - because this causes the right palm to also rotate targetwards. Jeff. I'm sorry, I don't know what the GFLW is. Could you explain it? Also, I'm a huge flipper and desperately want to get to a flat or bowed left wrist at impact. How to I make my wrists relax enough so this happens automatically?
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Post by majorminor on Mar 31, 2011 11:38:11 GMT -5
That bowed wrist won't happen automatically/naturally as Jeff seems to think. I like to see the evidence that supports this as an automatic and natural event, how can you proof this as true.
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Post by natep on Mar 31, 2011 13:40:24 GMT -5
Jeff,
You have the cause and effect relationship backwards regarding cupping the wrist and pronation. I'ts not that a cupped wrist causes more pronation, but that more pronation leads to cupping the wrist. Just read the article, Hogan said he tried to open the face as much as he could, as fast as he could.
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Post by candygram on Mar 31, 2011 14:11:59 GMT -5
CG, You wrote-: "On a side note, although I agree that I've never seen Hogan with a cupped left wrist at impact, in another thread I saw pictures of Louis Oosthuizen with a cupped left wrist at the the top as well as at impact, so you can't say it never happens with professionals." A cupped left wrist at impact is possible in a professional golfer if the cupping is due to a GFLW or a very strong grip. I stated that I had never seen a "bent left wrist" in a skilled professional golfer at impact. What is a GFLW? Oosthuizen does not have a very strong grip. And what is the difference between a cupped and bent wrist?
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Post by majorminor on Mar 31, 2011 15:35:14 GMT -5
Jeff, You have the cause and effect relationship backwards regarding cupping the wrist and pronation. I'ts not that a cupped wrist causes more pronation, but that more pronation leads to cupping the wrist. Just read the article, Hogan said he tried to open the face as much as he could, as fast as he could. Nate i see what your getting at but could you not still have a flat wrist even with extra pronation as long as you have a shorten b.s.
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Post by natep on Mar 31, 2011 15:58:05 GMT -5
Yes, but the club would be very laid off at the top.
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Post by majorminor on Mar 31, 2011 16:03:08 GMT -5
Yes, but the club would be very laid off at the top. Yeah, was Hogan laid off or just short of the end position what's your take on this as he said he rotated the club as fast and as much as he could.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 31, 2011 17:20:24 GMT -5
Cg, You asked-: "What is a GFLW? Oosthuizen does not have a very strong grip. And what is the difference between a cupped and bent wrist?" A cupped left wrist is the scooped appearance of the back of the left wrist and it exists when a golfer has either one-or-more of the following - i) a GFLW, ii) a bent left wrist or iii) a very strong grip. If a golfer has a GFLW then the LAFW is intact, while a bent left wrist means that the left wrist is dorsiflexed and this disrupts the LAFW. I have discussed this issue of a GFLW and the flying wedges in my grip chapter and backswing chapters. perfectgolfswingreview.net/grip.htmperfectgolfswingreview.net/backswing.htmJeff.
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Post by candygram on Mar 31, 2011 18:08:17 GMT -5
Thanks, I just read the grip article and it explains the terms well.
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Post by natep on Mar 31, 2011 18:28:13 GMT -5
Yes, but the club would be very laid off at the top. Yeah, was Hogan laid off or just short of the end position what's your take on this as he said he rotated the club as fast and as much as he could. I believe that Hogan got laid off at the start of the downswing when he started to flatten the wrist. I've seen many swings of hogan though and honestly none of them are the same. Sometimes he laid it off a lot, sometimes not. Supposedly when he gave lessons to John Schlee he taught him to lay it off and referred to it as the "world class move".
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Post by aimsmithgolf on Apr 4, 2011 6:44:44 GMT -5
That bowed wrist won't happen automatically/naturally as Jeff seems to think. I like to see the evidence that supports this as an automatic and natural event, how can you proof this as true. Sorry but it DOES happen automatically. I have known this for a fact since the late 70's. I bought a super 8 movie camera and recorded my swing. To my amazement, and this continues to this day, my left wrist was bowed just like Hogan's without any effort on my part to do so. In fact, the bowing was too pronounced over the years and caused problems. It has also been a problem with Ernie Els. Rand
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