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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 9:56:57 GMT -5
Post by monkutare on Dec 8, 2010 9:56:57 GMT -5
I have a hard time visualising how the LAFW is on "plane" on the backswing when my reference planes are the right elbow plane at address and the turned (right) shoulder plane at the top
Or, is it that the LAFW is only momentarily on one of the planes and is constantly changing it's orientation in space on the backswing?
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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 10:33:29 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 10:33:29 GMT -5
HKs' concept of being "on plane" only relates to the fact that the peripheral end of the club points at the baseline of the inclined plane - when it is not parallel to the ball-target line. There is no reference plane. During the backswing, a golfer is steepening his clushaft from the hand/elbow plane to the TSP - but he is still always "on plane" if he meets HK's definition of being "on plane". The same applies to the downswing. Here is Badds. His club is dropping from the TSP to the elbow plane - while remaining "on plane". Checkpoint 1 (image 1) - when the left arm is parallel to the ground, the butt end of the clubshaft should point at the ball-target line indicating that the clubshaft is on-plane. The back of the flat left wrist should be parallel to the inclined plane (which is on, or preferably just below, the turned shoulder plane). Checkpoint 2 (image 2) - when the left hand has moved down slightly further it is now on a shallower plane (intermediate between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane). The back of the flat left wrist should be parallel to this shallower plane. The butt end of the clubshaft should point at the ball-target line indicating that the clubshaft is on-plane. The clubshaft should cut across the right mid-lower biceps. Checkpoint 3 (image 3) - when the left hand has reached a position below waist level, the left hand should be on the elbow plane. The butt end of the clubshaft should point at the ball-target line indicating that the clubshaft is on-plane. The clubshaft should appear in-line with the right forearm. If the clubshaft passes through these checkpoints successfully, it indicates that the clubshaft has remained "on-plane" while smoothly and progressively shifting planes from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane. Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 12:26:52 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 8, 2010 12:26:52 GMT -5
Jeff how do you think think the camera's position influences the look of which plane someone is on? More specifically, how do you think the cameras position in Aaron Baddley's swing sequence posted above influences the look of which plane he is swinging on?
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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 12:54:12 GMT -5
Post by monkutare on Dec 8, 2010 12:54:12 GMT -5
Jeff,
What plane is the inclined plane of drawing 1L in the TGM book?
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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 16:55:47 GMT -5
Post by gmbtempe on Dec 8, 2010 16:55:47 GMT -5
Jeff, What plane is the inclined plane of drawing 1L in the TGM book? Not Jeff but it looks like the TSP, maybe even steeper.
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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 18:35:50 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 18:35:50 GMT -5
Ringer,
If the camera angle is not positioned perfectly, there will be a slight misperception of the plane's exact position - but it should not be so great that one could mix up the TSP and the elbow plane.
Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 8, 2010 18:41:14 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 8, 2010 18:41:14 GMT -5
MK,
The inclined plane in that I-L drawing has no definition in terms of the TSP or elbow plane - because it is a non-human machine. I guess one could call it the plane of the single arm's inclination relative to the ground.
Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 11:24:08 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 9, 2010 11:24:08 GMT -5
Ringer, If the camera angle is not positioned perfectly, there will be a slight misperception of the plane's exact position - but it should not be so great that one could mix up the TSP and the elbow plane. Jeff. I'm not so sure Jeff. For example, here is a picture you posted on your site indicating the path that the clubhead traveled during AB's swing. So it is just about as close as you can get to going back and forth on one plane as you state here just below the picture on your website. But here in this thread you are suggesting that AB is changing planes and using the same pictures to prove your point. Furthermore you are also saying that AB is "on plane" during this whole shift because he is pointing the butt end of the club on the same baseline. I beg to differ, and again I'll use your own images. You can clearly see that the plane appears much flatter as he is supposedly getting to the "elbow plane". There is a FAR FAR more reasonable explanation for what we are looking at with AB's swing, and it's simply that he is swinging out to the right of the camera's point of view. Looking at the picture from your website again we can see his clubhead path approaching impact from the inside half of the ball and exiting to the outside half of the golf ball. (Left side image) So clearly the plane line he is swinging on is out well to the right. We can also see that his right foot is further away from the shaft on the ground than his left indicating his alignment is also out to the right of the shaft (and camera). Bottom line, AB is not shifting planes at all. He is swinging on one plane but it is out to the right of where the camera's position is. Likely he is attempting to hit a draw. This will always give the appearance of a steepening of the swing during the first part of the downswing and a flattening at delivery as I clearly demonstrate in this video.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 12:41:31 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 12:41:31 GMT -5
Ringer, You wrote with respect to this next photo-: "So it is just about as close as you can get to going back and forth on one plane as you state here just below the picture on your website." That photo shows the clubhead arc path. The clubhead arc path has nothing to do with the conceptual idea of the clubshaft being "on-plane". A path and a plane are two totally different concepts. You wrote with respect to this next photo-: "You can clearly see that the plane appears much flatter as he is supposedly getting to the "elbow plane". There is a FAR FAR more reasonable explanation for what we are looking at with AB's swing, and it's simply that he is swinging out to the right of the camera's point of view." The lines in red that you drew are meaningless. It is only reasonable to draw a line down the clubshaft to represent a plane when the clubshaft is perpendicular to the camera - and that is image 1. In image 2 and 3, the butt end of the club is pointing into the photo (which is two-dimensional). Therefore, one must mentally project its direction-of-pointing in 3-D space. If one does that mental projection exercise, then one can understand why his clubshaft is still "on-plane" (pointing at the baseline of the inclined plane, and not pointing to the right of the baseline). I think that the drawn red lines in image 2 and 3 are meaningless. You wrote with respect to this next image-: "Looking at the picture from your website again we can see his clubhead path approaching impact from the inside half of the ball and exiting to the outside half of the golf ball. (Left side image)" Where do you see the clubhead exiting the outside half of the ball in the left-side image? The bottom arc is the backswing arc, and the top arc is the downswing arc. Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 13:08:25 GMT -5
Post by gmbtempe on Dec 9, 2010 13:08:25 GMT -5
Ringer,
If you feel AB swings on one consistent plane the entire swing than we have very different concepts of the swing plane.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 14:42:01 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 9, 2010 14:42:01 GMT -5
Ringer, If you feel AB swings on one consistent plane the entire swing than we have very different concepts of the swing plane. Then you also must disagree with Jeff. His explination of "on plane" referred to where the butt end of the club pointed. Jeff asserted in his post that AB was on plane. That is Jeff in his own words saying that to be on plane the butt end of the club points at the plane line (or baseline). But AB is NOT pointing the butt end of the club at a baseline that is in the direction of the target. If we were to trace the point on the ground where AB's butt end of the club points, it would be going out to the right considerably. Look, I know it's so inconceivable that I might actually be right about something here that absolutely no one wants to agree with me.... but frankly the evidence is right in front of everyones face that AB is swinging out to the right. Take me and your disdain for me out of the equation and look at the facts. The butt end of the club is NOT tracing a plane line from ball to target, it is tracing a plane line out to the RIGHT of the target. It's as plain as day or vanilla ice cream. And I am not even "misquoting" Jeff or lying about what he said. I am taking quotes directly off of this thread and his website. He has said repeatedly that AB is swinging on the SAME PLANE. I actually agree that AB is swinging on the same plane, just that that plane is shifted out to the right. He's hitting a draw.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 14:57:14 GMT -5
Post by ringer on Dec 9, 2010 14:57:14 GMT -5
Ringer, You wrote with respect to this next photo-: "So it is just about as close as you can get to going back and forth on one plane as you state here just below the picture on your website." That photo shows the clubhead arc path. The clubhead arc path has nothing to do with the conceptual idea of the clubshaft being "on-plane". A path and a plane are two totally different concepts. Jeff.. YOU SAID IT FIRST!!! I simply agreed with you. Oh boy. Jeff the whole point of my post was to say that AB's swing is going to the right which gives the impression AB is changing planes. I could make Pingman or IronByron get the exact same look as AB here that they are shifting planes if I put the camera just to the right of their plane line. Look at how on the downswing the path is very much to the inside. Look how on the follow through, the path is very much to the OUTSIDE. The path of the clubhead just before impact is going to the RIGHT. It starts well inside at impact and exits slightly to the outside half of the golf ball at separation. This is a swing directed out to the RIGHT of the target.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 18:50:21 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 18:50:21 GMT -5
Ringer, You are free to believe that Badds is swinging to the right of the target. I prefer to believe that his clubhead arc is symmetrical to the inclined plane, and the fact that the downswing and followthorugh arcs are not superimposed is due to the camera angle. You also stated-: "And I am not even "misquoting" Jeff or lying about what he said. I am taking quotes directly off of this thread and his website. He has said repeatedly that AB is swinging on the SAME PLANE." I have never stated that AB is swinging on the same plane. He shifts planes from the TSP to the elbow plane in the downswing. While he is shifting planes - he is "on plane". The yellow dotted line represents the ball-target line and base of the inclined plane. I think that Badds club's butt points at that line, which means that he is "on plane". Jeff.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 23:32:55 GMT -5
Post by wedgey on Dec 9, 2010 23:32:55 GMT -5
Checkpoint 3 (image 3) - when the left hand has reached a position below waist level, the left hand should be on the elbow plane. The butt end of the clubshaft should point at the ball-target line indicating that the clubshaft is on-plane. The clubshaft should appear in-line with the right forearm.
I'm confused by this, is or should the yellow dotted line be pointing to the right of where it appears in the pics? Anyways if you extend the red line in pic 3 of Ringers and left the yellow dotted lines in the pic. doesn't the red line of Ringers intersect with the yellow dotted lines therefore the butt of the club would be pointing at the baseline/target line?
Could you both be right but are saying different things? In other words the baseline/target line is pointing right just that the camera angle is off but the butt of the club is still pointing at it.
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Planes
Dec 9, 2010 23:58:35 GMT -5
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2010 23:58:35 GMT -5
Wedgey, I think that Ringer's drawn red line in image 3 is meaningless. The club in image 3 is probably at an angle of 45 degrees to the surface of the photo - therefore you have to use your mental imagination to accurately predict where the butt end of the club is pointing in image 3. I think that it is pointing at point X - which is situated on the ball-target line. It is easy to test the validity of my mental projection - use a Smartstick and trace a SPL and then see where your laserlight beam is pointing when you get to the same position as AB in image 3. Jeff.
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