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Post by richie3jack on Dec 10, 2010 8:23:04 GMT -5
From pic 1 to pic 2 you can clearly see Ben Doyle's arm unfolding/straightening/thrust.
Adducting the right arm is part of the equation, no doubt about it. But so is the right arm straightening/thrusting/unfolding.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 10:14:28 GMT -5
3jack,
I don't see it. There may be a small amount of passive straightening.
Ben Doyle states that he wants his hands to pass the imaginary line between his eyes and the ball (yellow dotted line in image 3) before he actively straightens his right arm.
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 10, 2010 13:33:56 GMT -5
In pic 1, he's got a right arm angle somewhere near 90*. In pic two, his arm has straightened and it's clearly not anywhere near 90*. Pic 3's right arm is at about the same angle as Pic 2, but far straighter than it was in Pic 1. He continues to straighten the right arm in pic 4. It's a gradual straightening of the right arm. The arm adduction is part of it, but there's no way you can achieve what Ben does without that right arm straightening and the difference in the angle of the bend of Doyle's right arm is very noticeable in that sequence. 3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2010 16:50:50 GMT -5
3jack,
We will simply have to disagree on this matter.
I think that the left arm-clubshaft angle would increase between picture 1 and 2 if the right arm was straightening. I believe that the left arm-clubshaft angle only increases slightly between picture 2 and 3, and mainly increases between picture 3 and 4.
Jeff.
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Post by neckbone on Dec 12, 2010 18:54:42 GMT -5
"I think that the left arm-clubshaft angle would increase between picture 1 and 2 if the right arm was straightening"
I don't follow. Why would the straightening of the right arm have to have an effect on the Left arm-clubshaft angle? I would think that a thrusting of the right arm from pic 1 to pic 2 would decrease the angle between the left arm and the clubshaft, but certainly the amount of pivot acceleration in that interval would affect the angle as well.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 13, 2010 9:28:23 GMT -5
I don't understand how one cannot see Ben Doyle's right arm straightening in pic 1 to pic 2. Pic 1 the right arm is folded at about a 90* angle. Pic 2 it's nowhere near 90*. The other problem with the assertion of not gradually straightening the right arm is that the body will get in the way, thus the hands will not get more targetward at p6.
The only way I can get the hands more targetward with a right arm that has not straightened is to have an absurd amount of axis tilt *and* get the #4 Pressure Point detached so much that it's not even a plausible golf swing (and Doyle doesn't de-tach his #4 PP before impact.
IMO, those need to be viewed first.
1. How does one not see Doyle's right arm not straigthening in those pics?
2. What pics of a golfer making a plausible golf swing with maximum trigger delay does it with a right arm that has not straightened?
3. How are they able to accomplish that?
3JACK
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joec
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by joec on Dec 13, 2010 14:22:52 GMT -5
ben does straighten the right arm on the down swing. if he did not straighten the right arm, his right forearm would be too high at impact. the common fault of a hacker. picture #3 he is per ben "laying it on the line" his right forearm is in line with the shaft. the question is, why in the hell are you showing ben's swing, as i do not think anyone would want it.
what ben wants, and what ben feels,and what ben does, are not the same.
i worked alot with ben. trust me, the right arm is straightening.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 13, 2010 14:45:12 GMT -5
ben does straighten the right arm on the down swing. if he did not straighten the right arm, his right forearm would be too high at impact. the common fault of a hacker. picture #3 he is per ben "laying it on the line" his right forearm is in line with the shaft. the question is, why in the hell are you showing ben's swing, as i do not think anyone would want it. what ben wants, and what ben feels,and what ben does, are not the same. i worked alot with ben. trust me, the right arm is straightening. We are showing Ben's swing because Ben utilizes maximum trigger delay. One of the things we've discussed in this thread is how to get the hands to travel more towards the target at p6 so the hands are at about the middle of the stance at p6 instead of behind the right leg at p6. I discussed how one needs to straighten out the right arm gradually in the downswing in order to get here. Jeff believes that Ben Doyle achieves it without straightening the right arm because of what Ben describes he feels he does not. I'm with you, he clearly straightens out the right arm and what he says he feels he's doing and what he's doing are two different things. 3JACK
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Post by bullet on Dec 14, 2010 8:33:02 GMT -5
MORAD teaches a gradual thrusting/straightening of the right arm. I think 'gradual' is the key terminology in that if you were to view it on camera, for every frame the right arm will straighten out more to some degree. I think for MORAD's philosophy, Gahm thrusts too much too early. The reason for the thrust is: 1. it keeps the club on plane while the golfer is able to rotate their torso to open on the downswing. 2. It moves the hands more targetward at p6, which creates a 'maximum trigger delay' look. 3. Those hands moving forward get the shoulders more open at p6. Move the hands further away from the target at p6 and the shoulders will get closed. So at impact the golfer can more easily have the shoulders open to the target. This also ties in with getting the shoulderst to turn 90* to the spine. 3JACK Is this current Morad ? Point 3 above is simply not correct , delayed hip action with shift out / pitch elbow at top to transition take care of the hands being moved more forward/ and shoulders getting open, especially cp
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Post by bullet on Dec 14, 2010 8:36:14 GMT -5
ben does straighten the right arm on the down swing. if he did not straighten the right arm, his right forearm would be too high at impact. the common fault of a hacker. picture #3 he is per ben "laying it on the line" his right forearm is in line with the shaft. the question is, why in the hell are you showing ben's swing, as i do not think anyone would want it. what ben wants, and what ben feels,and what ben does, are not the same. i worked alot with ben. trust me, the right arm is straightening. thats great however a high right forearm is from having the arm too straight and inside the base line, correct TGM definition
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 14, 2010 11:18:30 GMT -5
MORAD teaches a gradual thrusting/straightening of the right arm. I think 'gradual' is the key terminology in that if you were to view it on camera, for every frame the right arm will straighten out more to some degree. I think for MORAD's philosophy, Gahm thrusts too much too early. The reason for the thrust is: 1. it keeps the club on plane while the golfer is able to rotate their torso to open on the downswing. 2. It moves the hands more targetward at p6, which creates a 'maximum trigger delay' look. 3. Those hands moving forward get the shoulders more open at p6. Move the hands further away from the target at p6 and the shoulders will get closed. So at impact the golfer can more easily have the shoulders open to the target. This also ties in with getting the shoulderst to turn 90* to the spine. 3JACK Is this current Morad ? Point 3 above is simply not correct , delayed hip action with shift out / pitch elbow at top to transition take care of the hands being moved more forward/ and shoulders getting open, especially cp This is my understanding, its the move I am trying to make. Whether or not its MORAD I think hand position at P6 does have an affect on your shoulders being open.
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Post by bullet on Dec 14, 2010 17:27:00 GMT -5
Is this current Morad ? Point 3 above is simply not correct , delayed hip action with shift out / pitch elbow at top to transition take care of the hands being moved more forward/ and shoulders getting open, especially cp This is my understanding, its the move I am trying to make. Whether or not its MORAD I think hand position at P6 does have an affect on your shoulders being open. This is simply from a lack of understanding of what happens before in a correct sequence so players who can't make the moves need to push the right arm forward or speed up #1 accum , but its a sloppy bandaid move
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 14, 2010 17:47:03 GMT -5
This is my understanding, its the move I am trying to make. Whether or not its MORAD I think hand position at P6 does have an affect on your shoulders being open. This is simply from a lack of understanding of what happens before in a correct sequence so players who can't make the moves need to push the right arm forward or speed up #1 accum , but its a sloppy bandaid move I am not going to disagree, you dont have the issue with right arm bend if you have the sequencing correct, of course you have to perform the correct movements along with the sequencing.
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