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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 18, 2011 20:36:33 GMT -5
Consider this BM-forum thread. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16546-mis-implementing-new-release.htmlGD automatically presumes that his poor ball striking results are due to the mis-implementation of BM's release action because he automatically presumes that BM is right. He hasn't apparently considered an alternative possibility - that he is correctly applying BM's release action and that is why he is getting those sub-optimal ball striking results. Interesting! It reminds me of the recent news report of those 1,500 birds that got killed when they dived straight down into a snow-covered Walmart parking lot - because they believed it was a lake. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 20, 2011 11:20:41 GMT -5
GD has now posted links to his swing. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16546-mis-implementing-new-release-2.htmlNearly everbody thinks that his problem is due to his use of a reverse hip slide action in his backswing. I think that's BS! VJ Trolio uses a reverse hip slide backswing action and he has no swing problems as a result. Here are capture images from GD's swing video where he uses the BM-release action. Image 1 shows him at the end-backswing position - showing his reverse hip slide backswing position. Image 2 shows how he releases from the top. Note that the right elbow has already straightened and his right elbow is high and far away from a pitch location in front of the right hip. Image 3 shows that he has prematurely completed his release of PA#2 - left arm/clubshaft are in a straight-line relationship. Note his high right elbow position. Note his reactive pivot action. All these faults are due to the use of BM's release-from-the-top release action combined with a reactive pivot. Look at VJ Trolio in image 4 - note the active pivot, note the retention of the right elbow bend and maintenance of an intact power package, and note that he is actively driving his right elbow down towards the pitch location in front of his right hip. That's the way to start the downswing. Here are more images of VJ Troilio. Look at image 5 - no "release-from-the-top" in his swing action (despite the use of reverse hip slide backswing action). Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 20, 2011 11:37:21 GMT -5
If your going to use that pivot that this guy has you better understand how to slide your hips to create the right axis tilts.
This guy does not have the strength to make the move that Trolio is making IMO. He has the shoulders way to closed at P5ish, and those he has to flip it to try to square the face.
I wonder if he hits a pull-pull hook?
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Post by natep on Dec 20, 2011 11:43:53 GMT -5
;D
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 20, 2011 12:02:42 GMT -5
Greg, You wrote-: "This guy does not have the strength to make the move that Trolio is making IMO. He has the shoulders way to closed at P5ish, and those he has to flip it to try to square the face." I disagree about both points. I think that he has the strength, but he doesn't have the "correct" teaching that will get him to start his downswing with a lower body rotation followed by an upper body rotation - while keeping the power package intact. I think that he flips because he "releases from the top" with an arm action and that it is not causally related to his right shoulder position. I think that his closed right shoulder motion is an "effect" due to using a reactive pivot action, which secondarily reacts to the arm motion. His shoulders would not be that closed at P5.5 if he started with an active pivot action (pelvis => shoulders) - like Hogan. perfectgolfswingreview.net/HoganPowerPackageSlotting.jpg [/img] Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2011 11:14:04 GMT -5
See this latest BM video. vimeo.com/34004235I think that BM is illogical and that he has a very poor understanding of golf swing mechanics/biomechancis and he gets many things wrong. Note that he doesn't like a reverse hip slide. Neither do I, but that's merely personal preference. He doesn't supply any logical reasoning to explain why one cannot perform a golf swing perfectly well using a reverse hip slide. VJ Trolio has a superb golf swing - even though he uses a reverse hip slide. BM also stated that left arm tuggers (his new derogatory term for handle draggers) need more disonnection between the torso and the arms at the start of the downswing. That's BS! A skilled swinger will use the pivot action to release PA#4 and the golfer should not prematurely attempt to move the left arm away from the body. Do you notice that BM is no longer advocating bending the left wrist soon after impact and now he states that it is OK for the clubshaft to be up-the-left arm well after impact. At least, he now realizes that this previous photo-demonstration of what "nearly 90% of golfers" look like after impact is ridiculous. Now, that's progress, and there is still some hope that he will regain his senses (which he had when he was a TGMer). The most stupid thing that BM stated in the video was related to his explanation of why the right wrist can straighten without bending the left wrist. He claimed that the right wrist straightens twice as much in the late downswing than the left wrist will bend and he states that what prevents the left wrist from bending is the pulling up of the hands. That's total BS!!!! Any pulling up of both hands in a vertical direction will not affect what happens in a horizontal direction - and any right wrist straightening action will bend the left wrist unless the left wrist gets out of the way (which happens automatically during a full roll hand release action). A pulling-up motion of both hands doesn't get the left wrist out of the way! Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2011 11:32:16 GMT -5
Here is another BS video by BM. vimeo.com/34027285He claims that Rory is performing an out-toss maneuver. That's BS - there is ZERO separation of Rory's arms (power package) from his torso at the start of the downswing. Any movement of his hands away from the target is due to his pivot action. At the 4 minute time point, BM claims that Rory is applying force around the coupling point with his right hand and that it continues from P5.5 to P6.5. He has ZERO evidence to support that claim - I think that Rory is a swinger and he is pulling the grip end of the club forward from P5.5 to P6.5 with his left hand, and the right hand is just keeping up. BM has also presented ZERO evidence that Rory is causing the club to release faster via any right sided push-action at PP#3. Finally, BM claims that the only force acting on the club at impact is a normal force - due to a pulling-up action of the extending torso. I think that's BS! What makes him think that the left arm/FLW is not continuing to actively move forward from P6.9 to P7.5? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 21, 2011 13:27:52 GMT -5
Wulsy wrote the following in the BM thread.
"I would have to say that the 2nd video will be ripped apart by your "haters" Brian.
Why? Because you can't see the forces, even when you put the arrows up. And the look of his hand path could not contradict tangential force more, as it kind of looks as if it moves in a handle dragin kinda way. "
Wulsy is getting too smart. He will have to be more careful if he doesn't want to get banned from the BM-forum.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2011 15:42:37 GMT -5
I dont understand BM saying that if you just move your hands in the out toss way the force will then be tangental, won't it be tangental as well if you do his dreaded handle dragging? I mean a hand path is a hand path isnt it?
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 21, 2011 16:29:10 GMT -5
I asked the question and he did not respond.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 22, 2011 12:13:38 GMT -5
In his Charlie Brown video, BM stated that "nearly all golfers" would like this post-impact. However, in his latest video, he states that in his personal swing the clubshaft is straight-in-line with his left arm after impact (roughly at the P7.2/7.3 position). So, what is BM doing differently in his personal swing when he uses his RACP release action - that allows him to avoid flip-bending the left wrist soon after impact (as he originally demonstrated in that photo)? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 23, 2011 10:23:54 GMT -5
BM stated in his forum thread regarding the Rory video. "I put the arrows up on this video to depict what the forces feel like to the golfer. (The early force is tangent to the hand path)". Where does a golfer "feel" forces? I think that we "feel" forces in the body part that generates the "force". So, in the traditional pivot-induced TGM swinging action, the kinetic sequence starts from the lower body rotating first. So, one "feels" force being generated in the torso. As the torso rotates, so the power package is pulled down into its downswing slot. The club is attached to the power package via the hands, and one can "feel" the hands pulling the club - but the hands are simply clamps, and they are not actively generating the pulling force. The direction of pull is determined by the torso's rotational movement. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's early downswing. perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadEarlyDownswing.jpg [/img] In the first 4 images, there is NO release of PA#4. The power package is being moved by the torso's rotational motion. So, the hands have to move backwards-and-downwards. The hand arc path between P4 and P5 is not precisely tangential to the clubhead arc, although its close to being in the same direction, which is one reason the club doesn't release early. The hand arc path in the early downswing is between 1 and 2. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 23, 2011 10:35:22 GMT -5
Look at this BM-forum thread. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16562-face-control-movement-body-position-3.htmlBM wrote-: "I don't like monitoring the hands." I am not surprised that he doesn't monitor the hands now that he is anti-TGM. He simply throws the clubhead at the ball using his RACP release action and he simply hopes that his left wrist will be flat at impact. I am firmly in the TGM camp in terms of focusing my attention of my hands, and not the clubhead. My mind is foucsed on the back my FLW and I think of swinging my FLW down at the start of the downswing and then rotating my FLW into impact using an intact LAFW/FLW swinging action. perfectgolfswingreview.net/AuthorTennis%20Stroke.jpg [/img] When performing a backhanded tennis stroke action, I simply think of rotating my FLW through the impact zone while maintaining an intact LAFW. If my FLW faces the target at impact, then I automatically know that the racquet face must also be facing the target. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 23, 2011 16:13:24 GMT -5
nmg,
For me the TGM swinging action is a single lever (left arm) swing action with the club releasing within the LAFW plane of the swinging single lever. I believe that the club catches up to the single lever at low point, and that one then swings the lever-club unit in its straight line relationship from P7 to P7.5. During the entire single-lever swing action from P4 to P7.5, the left wrist should be flat, which means that one is swinging an intact LAFW - like a back-handed tennis player - and the only difference is the fact that the club releases within the plane of the LAFW from P5.5 to P7.
I think that Jamie Sadlowski (shown in those photos two posts back) is as single lever golfer. I think that his right arm/hand does not increase the speed of release of PA#4 or PA#2, and it only has a stabilising/directorial function.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 23, 2011 18:30:54 GMT -5
nmg, You wrote-: "Its hard for me to argue the point too much because I once vociferously argued the golf shot was not unlike the tennis backhand shot. (That was on the now defunct mike austin forum circa 2005 or 6) But... I don't see any golfer being single lever since the wrist introduces another degree of freedom (which in tennis is all but held rigid into impact)." There is no more lead wrist rigidity in a back-handed tennis stroke action than a golf stroke, They both have a FLW because they use the intact LAFW concept of maintaining a FLW in one plane, but they have a degree of freedom in the other plane. Jamie has a degree of freedom in his left wrist motion in the plane of ulnar-radial deviation because he uses a strong left hand grip 4-knuckle grip), but he maintains a FLW/intact LAFW in the sense that his club never bypasses his left arm (causing his left wrist to ulnar deviate) at any time point between P4 and P7.5. The same phenomenon applies to Roger Federer. Here are capture images Image 1 shows Roger Federer prepared to start his back-handed tennis stroke action. Note that he has pre-swivelled the racquet grip in his right hand so that the racquet face is 90 degree angled relative to the back of his FLW/back of his right forearm. That is equivalent to a golfer adopting a very strong grip (4-knuckle grip) and that grip choice will allow Roger Federer to perform an arm stroke motion without having to roll his right forearm clockwise during the stroke motion (without having to perform the golfer's equivalent of releasing PA#3) in order to square the racquet face at impact. Note that he has radially deviated his right wrist to a very small degree (and that is equivalent to loading PA#2). Images 2, 3 and 4 show how he swings his right arm across the front of his body during his back-handed tennis stroke action. His back-handed tennis swing action is an arm stroke action, and there is only a small amount of wrist motion in the plane of the LAFW (the vertical plane of ulnar/radial deviation) - note that his right wrist is radially deviated in image 1 and that ends at impact. Image 5 shows how he maintains a FLW well beyond impact and he never allows his right wrist to flip-bend so that the racquet face bypasses his FLW/right arm (in the plane of ulnar deviation). Roger's right arm represents the central arm in a driven double pendulum swing model - as Jamie's left arm represents the central arm. In that particular sense, they are swinging the central arm. I, however, perceive both of their swing actions as a single lever biomechanical swing action - in the sense that they only biomechanically move one lever. Although the clubshaft can be perceived to be a peripheral arm in the double pendulum swing model, it doesn't change the fact that the TGM swinger's golf swing motion is essentially a biomechanical motion of a single lever (left arm). Jeff.
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