|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 26, 2012 23:44:33 GMT -5
Here is another BM video for Golf.now www.golf.com/video/drop-down-tiger-more-accuracyBM claims that Tiger's exaggerated drop-down move (bobbing down-and-then-up move) promotes accuracy. However, as per usual, BM doesn't provide any explanation as to why it would increase accuracy. I think that it will decrease accuracy - as I described in detail in my review paper. perfectgolfswingreview.net/ManzellaRelease.htmI also demonstrated in my review paper that it doesn't promote a flat spot (shallow clubhead attack angle) between P6.5 and P7 better than Tiger's old swing (year 2000 swing when he didn't use a drop-down move). Here is BM's theory on how "bobbing down-and-then-up" shallows the clubhead attack angle. The blue clubhead path represents the clubhead path of a golfer who has a steep clubhead attack angle due to the fact that he flexes his knees and flexes his hips during phase 2 of the downswing action (as occurs in Tiger Woods "bobbing up-and-down" swing video). The red clubhead path shows how the clubhead path would shallow-out if the golfer "jumps up" and shortens the hub radius in phase 3 of the downswing action. However, when Tiger Woods was not "bobbing up-and-down" in his "old" swing action (as represented by his Nike commercial swing action), he could easily generate a shallow clubhead path in his driver swing action. Here is a capture image showing his clubhead path in his Nike commercial swing action. The blue-colored splined path shows his hand arc path - note that the low point of his hand arc path is near his right thigh and that there is only a small degree of elevation of his hand arc path in phase 3 of his downswing. The red arc path is his clubhead path and one can clearly see that it is very shallow in the 12" prior to impact. Jeff.
|
|
ef425
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by ef425 on Jun 27, 2012 12:39:33 GMT -5
I'm surprised you don't think this swing is bobbing up and down. Looks like the same head movement Tiger has always had in his swing.
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Jun 27, 2012 13:38:55 GMT -5
Tiger dipped his head in 2000, there are several videos by Wayne DeFrancisco that show this, ranging from amateur to dominant pro, to 2010. Did it get a tad worse? Yea a little bit, but the move has always been there. I also like the down the line view for that type of conversation.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 27, 2012 19:00:22 GMT -5
ef425, I never indicated that Tiger's head didn't drop in his Nike commercial swing - it has to if he develops secondary axis tilt. However, the degree of knee flex in the early-mid downswing and the degree of left straightening at impact is far less than his swing of recent years. Here is a recent Tiger Woods swing. I think that he is flexing his knees and hips more in this recent swing, and then jumping-up more at impact - than he did in at the time of the Nike commercial. Nike commercial swing Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Jun 27, 2012 19:53:15 GMT -5
and now he is one of the best and most accurate drivers of the golf ball. Your supporting the changes I assume given the results?
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 27, 2012 20:41:42 GMT -5
Greg,
What changes are making him a more accurate driver of the ball?
It cannot be the excessive "bobbing up-and-down" motion because he was also doing that in the Haney era.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 27, 2012 20:53:12 GMT -5
Greg, You wrote the following in BM's forum-: "Good players dip down, I think Wayne D has pretty much debunked the steady head in the downswing with his videos". In what way has WDF debunked the steady head theory? In this review paper ( perfectgolfswingreview.net/ManzellaRelease.htm ), I use Robert Rock as an example of a golfer who has a very steady head, and he has a superb golf swing. Can you find any fault with his golf swing as a result of his having a steady head? The same applies to Annika Sorenstam - she has a steady head, and she doesn't "bob- up-and-down", and she has a superb golf swing. Jeff.
|
|
ef425
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by ef425 on Jun 27, 2012 22:10:31 GMT -5
Jeff, I'm always interested in reading your work, but sometimes I find it hard to understand your point from a practical perspective. You wrote: But then one post later: I also think that Robert Rock drops his head more than the capture from your review paper, but you are right about Annika
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 27, 2012 23:33:12 GMT -5
ef425
I have no objection to a small amount of head dropping due to having "lively" knees - as it is a biomechanically normal phenomenon when swinging a golf club downwards-and-forwards in the direction of low point. However, I have never discovered any logical reason to exaggerate knee flexion or hip flexion in the early/mid downswing and/or exaggerate left knee straightening through impact. Any exaggeration of motion in a vertical plane simply makes tit more difficult to create a consistent clubhead arc.
Robert Rock has "lively" knees, but there is no exaggerated vertical bobbing-up-and-down motion in his golf swing action.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Jun 28, 2012 0:17:30 GMT -5
Whats funny is Rock probably has had very precise instruction on head movement, 1 inch down, 2 inches back, or something close to that.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 28, 2012 8:09:36 GMT -5
I still have not seen anyone present any solid reasoning as to how Tiger's exaggerated bobbing up-and-down motion can increase accuracy - as BM claims. If Tiger is driving more accurately in recent months, then it is not causally due to any exaggerated/unnecessary vertical motion.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Jun 28, 2012 9:34:18 GMT -5
I still have not seen anyone present any solid reasoning as to how Tiger's exaggerated bobbing up-and-down motion can increase accuracy - as BM claims. If Tiger is driving more accurately in recent months, then it is not causally due to any exaggerated/unnecessary vertical motion. Jeff. He is now using a Stack and Tilt light swing, think thats what foley said, and that has increased his accuracy!
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Jun 28, 2012 9:38:12 GMT -5
I still have not seen anyone present any solid reasoning as to how Tiger's exaggerated bobbing up-and-down motion can increase accuracy - as BM claims. If Tiger is driving more accurately in recent months, then it is not causally due to any exaggerated/unnecessary vertical motion. Jeff. and my earliest point was not necessarily that his bobbing increased anything its just that most of the great golfers, Hogan, Snead, Woods, Palmer, Nelson, etc etc dropped their head in the downswing. You notice now even most of the "steady head" proponents are now limiting that to "well its more important on the backswing" or well "we want it steady in terms of distance from the ball but it can move up and down". Sure you can find SOME hall of fame players like Annika that did not drop their head in the downswing but they are pretty rare.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 28, 2012 17:50:12 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "You notice now even most of the "steady head" proponents are now limiting that to "well its more important on the backswing" or well "we want it steady in terms of distance from the ball but it can move up and down".
I don't know how the head can be steady in terms of distance from the ball, and still move significantly up-and-down (in a vertical plane of motion). Secondly, if many golfers now believe that it is preferable to bob up-and-down - that doesn't mean that their subjective opinion is logically meritorious.
You also wrote regarding Tiger Woods-: "He is now using a Stack and Tilt light swing, think thats what foley said, and that has increased his accuracy!"
How? What component of the Foley-taught swing style is responsible for his increased accuracy?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Jun 28, 2012 19:57:00 GMT -5
Better question for Tiger but the one thing I like is he has steepened his shoulder turn and is not quite as vertical with his shoulders on the downswing.
|
|