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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 27, 2012 20:41:19 GMT -5
His misses are consistent with an impact that is too shallow: weak and to the right. Was this the miss that Hogan had to deal with, I would assume his swing action created a similar type of over shallowing of the club? No, not at all. Just another Hogan myth. He was back on-plane almost immediately in the downswing post-accident.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 27, 2012 20:49:24 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " His misses are consistent with an impact that is too shallow: weak and to the right." I think that stating that his clubshaft plane at impact is too shallow is BS, because his impact plane is not too shallow. His clubshaft is just above the hand plane at impact and many golfers (Hogan and Trevino and Mahan) are on this plane at impact. Sergio steepens his clubshaft plane after bypassing the P5.5 position, when his FLW (and LAFW) rotates >90 degrees into impact - and where his i) hand position and ii) chosen accumulator #3 angle at impact determines his clubshaft plane through the immediate impact zone. Jeffy - you keep asking me what causes Sergio's mishits and I have no idea because I do not have access to any swing videos showing his mishit shots. How can I possibly know what causes his mishits if I cannot analyse those particular mishit swings using a swing analyser program? Well, you are just admitting your ignorance then. I know why. So do a bunch of other people. Well, it just shows that you don't know as much as you think you do! This isn't any more complicated than predicting what kind of a miss an over-the-top player would have.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 27, 2012 21:32:16 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "Well, it just shows that you don't know as much as you think you do! This isn't any more complicated than predicting what kind of a miss an over-the-top player would have."
I have already addressed this issue. Jeffy is mixing up an underplane shot (which I have previously defined and which results in an in-to-out clubhead path) with a shallow clubshaft impact zone plane (which will result in a straight shot if the clubhead path and clubface orientation angle are zeroed-out at impact).
I am happy to let forum members, and guests, independently decide who knows what he is is talking about re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 27, 2012 22:05:24 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " Well, it just shows that you don't know as much as you think you do! This isn't any more complicated than predicting what kind of a miss an over-the-top player would have." I have already addressed this issue. Jeffy is mixing up an underplane shot (which I have previously defined and which results in an in-to-out clubhead path) with a shallow clubshaft impact zone plane (which will result in a straight shot if the clubhead path and clubface orientation angle are zeroed-out at impact). In other words, if the player manages to compensate for the underplane shaft before impact. Even a great athlete like Sergio can't do it every time. No happier than I am!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 28, 2012 6:55:33 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " In other words, if the player manages to compensate for the underplane shaft before impact. Even a great athlete like Sergio can't do it every time." It is obvious that Sergio's swing involves idiosyncratic biomechanical compensatory moves to compensate for his shallow clubshaft plane at P5.5, and it is obvious that it cannot be done perfectly every time. The same applies to all golfers who have idiosyncratic compensatory swing moves eg. Jim Furyk. Furyk's clubshaft is also on the hand plane at impact, but his clubshaft in on a very steep plane at his end-backswing (image 1 - extension line drawn from the butt end of his club points inside the ball-target line). Furyk has to use an idiosyncratic move to loop his clubshaft from a steep end-backswing plane position to the hand plane by impact. There is no rational reason to believe that Garcia's compensatory move is biomechanically more complex than Furyk's compensatory move. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 28, 2012 9:23:22 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " In other words, if the player manages to compensate for the underplane shaft before impact. Even a great athlete like Sergio can't do it every time." It is obvious that Sergio's swing involves idiosyncratic biomechanical compensatory moves to compensate for his shallow clubshaft plane at P5.5, and it is obvious that it cannot be done perfectly every time. The same applies to all golfers who have idiosyncratic compensatory swing moves eg. Jim Furyk. Furyk's clubshaft is also on the hand plane at impact, but his clubshaft in on a very steep plane at his end-backswing (image 1 - extension line drawn from the butt end of his club points inside the ball-target line). Furyk has to use an idiosyncratic move to loop his clubshaft from a steep end-backswing plane position to the hand plane by impact. There is no rational reason to believe that Garcia's compensatory move is biomechanically more complex than Furyk's compensatory move.Jeff. Another terrible analogy. All idiosyncrasies are created equal??? You're going to need to do some real analysis, Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 28, 2012 13:09:42 GMT -5
Jeffy,
I never stated that they are equal in their level of complexity of biomechanical execution, but they could be, and you have zero "evidence" (that they are equal, or not).
You have never presented any evidence that Sergio's mishits are causally related to his shallow clubshaft plane at P5.5. In every video that I have examined, he has no difficulty generating an in-to-square clubhead path between P5.5 and P7 and zeroing-out his clubface orientation angle at impact. Your belief that Sergio is prone to in-to-out clubhead paths is simply a "belief" devoid of proof. If you had video proof, then your would have presented your "evidence".
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 28, 2012 17:54:33 GMT -5
I think that Jeffy seemingly cannot understand the biomechanics of Sergio's swing action between P5.5 and P7, and he seemingly cannot understand how Sergio avoids an in-to-out clubhead path between P5.5 and P7. It is so easy to understand if one examines his swing action. Image 1 shows him at P5.5 - note that his FLW is parallel to a shallow inclined plane. Note that his hands are roughly below belt level. Image 2 shows him at P6. Note how his hands have now dropped lower and reached the hand plane. Note how he has rotated his body and arms in such a manner that the back of his FLW is now parallel to the ball-target line, which gets his clubshaft to be parallel to the ball-target line. That means that he is on-plane (and not underplane). From that P6 position, he simply has to let the club remain on the hand plane as he releases PA#2 and then PA#3. His key move is between image 1 and image 2, which he performs very easily from a biomechanical perspective. Note how he releases the club within the plane of the LAFW while he rotates his LAFW using his characteristic body/arm motion. What allows Sergio to easily generate an in-to-square clubhead path is the fact that he continues to rotate his body between P6 and P7. Golfers who get underplane between P5.5 and P7 and who generate an in-to-out clubhead path are not rotating their body/arms enough - like Sergio. They tend to tilt their right shoulder down and allow their hands/grip to move away from the body in a right-of-target manner. Sergio doesn't allow that to happen - he keeps his right arm closely coupled to his torso and he allows his right shoulder's downplane motion to direct the right forearm into impact with his right forearm on plane between P6 and P7 - note how the right forearm moves between image 2 and image 4. That on-plane right forearm motion easily allows him to complete the release of PA#3 and he easily gets his right palm (and therefore clubface) to be square to the target by impact. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 28, 2012 20:13:58 GMT -5
I think that Jeffy seemingly cannot understand the biomechanics of Sergio's swing action between P5.5 and P7, and he seemingly cannot understand how Sergio avoids an in-to-out clubhead path between P5.5 and P7. It is so easy to understand if one examines his swing action. Of course I "understand": the guy is a professional golfer and a tour winner! He makes it work most of the time, but is no better than average in terms of consistency.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 28, 2012 22:09:27 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "He makes it work most of the time, but is no better than average in terms of consistency."
That's a meaningless claim.
If one judged professional golfers solely based on their ball-striking stats, then one could claim that the golfer with the best stats (FIR/GIR) for a particular year is making his particular swing work best. That is a testament to his individual skill level at mastering his particular swing pattern during that time period of measurement, and it tells us nothing about the basic soundness of the individual golfer's fundamental swing biomechanics/mechanics. I am not interested in debating the relative talent of individual professional golfers, and I am not contesting the fact that Sergio's skill level could have deteriorated in recent years. I am only contesting Jeffy's claim that Sergio's swing biomechanics/mechanics is flawed because he chooses to have a shallow clubshaft plane at P5.5. I think that's a BS claim - and Jeffy has failed to explain why that swing pattern would produce "weak shots to the right".
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 28, 2012 22:48:19 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " He makes it work most of the time, but is no better than average in terms of consistency." That's a meaningless claim. If one judged professional golfers solely based on their ball-striking stats, then one could claim that the golfer with the best stats (FIR/GIR) for a particular year is making his particular swing work best. That is a testament to his individual skill level at mastering his particular swing pattern during that time period of measurement, and it tells us nothing about the basic soundness of the individual golfer's fundamental swing biomechanics/mechanics. I am not interested in debating the relative talent of individual professional golfers, and I am not contesting the fact that Sergio's skill level could have deteriorated in recent years. I am only contesting Jeffy's claim that Sergio's swing biomechanics/mechanics is flawed because he chooses to have a shallow clubshaft plane at P5.5. I think that's a BS claim - and Jeffy has failed to explain why that swing pattern would produce "weak shots to the right".
Jeff. Of course I've explained why a shallow impact will tend to produce misses that are weak and to the right, just as every golf instructor will tell you! What could be more basic?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 29, 2012 6:54:04 GMT -5
Jeffy,
I have not seen any explanation by you that explains why a shallow clubshaft plane at impact (eg. hand plane versus the TSP) will produce weak shots to the right. If a golfer's club travels on the hand plane (shallow plane) between P6 and P7 and the clubhead path is in-to-square, then there is no reason why the golfer cannot hit a solid straight shot. You are seemingly implying that a shallow clubshaft plane at impact is due to an underplane clubshaft motion between P6 and P7, and that is obviously not true if a golfer traces a SPL between P6 and P7.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Aug 29, 2012 7:24:38 GMT -5
Jeffy, I have not seen any explanation by you that explains why a shallow clubshaft plane at impact (eg. hand plane versus the TSP) will produce weak shots to the right. If a golfer's club travels on the hand plane (shallow plane) between P6 and P7 and the clubhead path is in-to-square, then there is no reason why the golfer cannot hit a solid straight shot. You are seemingly implying that a shallow clubshaft plane at impact is due to an underplane clubshaft motion between P6 and P7, and that is obviously not true if a golfer traces a SPL between P6 and P7. Jeff. Maybe you should read a golf instruction book, then. Jim Hardy's Solid Contact would be a good start and anything by John Jacobs. They will help you learn how to relate impact conditions to ball flight.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 29, 2012 14:43:38 GMT -5
;D
Jeff.
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