Pitch versus punch elbow

[imperfectgolfer]

See this 3jack forum thread.

richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4078&page=1

I have no idea what they are talking about (especially Playa and 3jack) - primarily because they have not defined what they mean by the terms "pitch" and "punch".

I even downloaded Virtuoso's pitch and punch elbow videos to see if I could see a significant difference using my swing analyser program. I couldn't - either because there is no significant difference, or because I do not know what to look for in terms of differences.

I would like to understand what other forum members believe is the definition of the terms "pitch" and "punch" and whether it primarily refers to a right elbow motion or a right elbow position. I would also like to know whether a pure swinger can use a punch elbow motion and whether a pure hitter can use a pitch elbow motion. The answers to those questions would maybe allow me to understand what different forum members believe is the primary purpose of either a pitch elbow or punch elbow motion.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

I have noted that Virtuoso has posted new videos of his punch CP action and his pitch CF action.

I can see no evidence of a punch motion in his video, which simply indicates that we have different definitions/usages of the term "punch".

I only use the term "punch" to indicate a hitter's action and the term "pitch" for a swinger's action.

Starting with a swinger, who swings the LAFW from P4 to P7.3+, I think that the purpose of the RFFW is to support the LAFW at its end-backswing position and also during the power package slotting phase to P6+. THe "correct" supporting position for the RFFW at the end-backswing position is with the right forearm vertical (or near-vertical) and PP#3 under the shaft (and not behind the shaft). Between P4 and P6/6.5, the "correct" position of the RFFW is such that the right palm is parallel to the inclined plane, and under the left palm (which is the epicenter of the LAFW which must be lying on the surface of the inclined plane). To get the right palm parallel to the inclined plane between P4 and P6, the right humerus must remain neutral or externally rotate during the right arm adduction maneuver and the right elbow must lead. The position of the right elbow between P6 and P6.5 will be well in front of the right hip area if one uses a delayed release of PA#2 (late release) or alongside the right hip area if one uses a random release action. It may even be behind the right hip area if one releases PA#2 earlier (sweep release). Therefore, the position of the right elbow doesn't define a pitch elbow motion because it is defined by the purpose, and motion of the RFFW.

Here is Keegan Bradleys pitch elbow action.



Note how KB swings his LAFW down the inclined plane and he lets the clubshaft release within the plane of his LAFW. Note how the RFFW only supports the LAFW with the right palm parallel to the inclined plane between P4 and P6.5 and under the shaft, and the right palm only gets behind the shaft between P6.5 and P7 secondary to the release swivel action.

By contrast, a hitter doesn't load a LAFW and left wrist at the end-backswing position. He loads the right elbow at the end-backswing position by using a twistaway maneuver (and not a swinger's takeaway swivel action), and the right forearm should be angled well forward. Then, during the early mid-dowswning, a hitter uses the right shoulder's downplane motion to re-position the right elbow so that one can hit from a loaded right elbow at some time point during the mid-downswing. PP#3 must be behind the shaft and not under the shaft in a hitter's punch motion, and therefore the right palm cannot be parallel to the inclined plane (as occurs in swingers). From the loaded right elbow position at ~P5.5, the hitter will drive both PP#1 and PP#3 in a straight line thrust down the angle of approach towards his aiming point using an active right arm straightening action (active release of PA#1). That driving motion of the right forearm due to the active release of PA#1 will tend to keep the right elbow back behind the right hip area (as a reactive result of the thrust action), and the degree of forward motion of the right elbow in the later downswing mainly depends on the degree of forward motion of the right shoulder during that time period.

Here is a hitter's punch elbow motion.



I don't see any of those features of a hitter's punch elbow motion in Virtuoso's punch-CP video.



Here are capture videos from his punch-CP video.



Image 1 shows that he uses a swinger's takeaway swivel action. Image 2 shows that the RFFW is positioned near-vertically under the LAFW and PP#3 is under the shaft. Image 3 shows the right palm is parallel to the inclined plane, which characterizes a swinger's pitch elbow motion. Image 4 shows a CP-arm release action.

I think that Virtuoso is a swinger who uses a pitch elbow motion, and I am intellectually curious in understanding why he uses the term "punch" for this swing action.

Also, Virtuoso has a video which he labels "super cp ala Lee Trevino, with left base line"



I don't think that he looks like Trevino - because Trevino used a CF-arm release action and not a CP-arm release action.

Here are comparison images.



Virtuoso has his foot stance well open (like Trevino) but he is using a CP-arm release action where he directs his hands inside-left of the ball-target line after impact, while Trevino directs his hands outwards away from his body using a CF-arm release action. Trevino always talked about "aiming left and swinging right".

Jeff.

[virtuoso]

hey Jeff, check this out. This was my attempt at hitting as you described it. Didn't get much twist away in the backswing but tell what you think about p5 to p8.

[imperfectgolfer]

Virtuoso,

I am away from home for a few days so I do not have access to my swing analyser program, and I therefore cannot study your swing action in great detail. However, on gross observation, it still looks like a quitessential swinger's action. You seem to be using a swinger's full-roll hand release action after impact, which a TGM hitter would not use. You also seem to be swinging your intact LAFW through impact - as a swinger - and therefore I cannot identify a hitter's punch motion (as described by Scott in my previously posted video) - which is straight line thrust of the right hand through impact due to an active release of PA#1. You seem to be releasing PA#4 as a swinger, and you also seem to be using a centrifugally-induced release of PA#2 (passive release of PA#2). A TGM hitter would be releasing PA#2 secondary to the active release of PA#1, and there would be no centrifugal release of PA#2.

Could you please describe how you have been using the term "punch " as it pertains to your personal swing action, and could you also describe how it differs from a pitch elbow motion? I am trying to better understand what you are trying to accomplish with your different punch/pitch motions.

Thanks,

Jeff.

[virtuoso]

Jeff-

My interpretation of punch vs pitch is very simple. I merely defined them as positional between P4 and P6. If, in that zone, the elbow is more beind the torso, it is punch. If it is more in front of the torso, it is pitch.

It terms of a different procedure, it effected the pivot such that for a given shaft position in the downswing, say p5, the pivot would have to be more advanced (more rotated) with punch elbow if I wanted to have a straight path with the clubhead at impact.

[virtuoso]

Hey jeff, do you have the dtl capture images of Scott's hitting action when he hits the ball. I'd like to study that.

Or dtl images of anyone else using the hitting action?

[imperfectgolfer]

Virtuoso,

I have never made DTL capture images of Scott's hitting action. I used a camcorder that only had a frame rate of 30 frames/second, which is inadequate for swing capture image production.

Here is Tom Tomasello demonstrating swinging versus hitting. There are some DTL views, but the frame rate is too slow for decent capture image production.



The key feature of a hitting action (using a punch elbow motion) is that the release of PA#1 (active right arm straightening action) powers the swing - including the release of PA#2 and PA#3 (which is less than usual because there is no takeaway swivel action of the LAFW onto the inclined plane in the backswing). The position of the right elbow in a hitter's action depends on the timing of the release of PA#1 - it will be behind the right hip if the release of PA#1 occurs earlier and it will be in front of the right hip if PA#1 release is delayed.

If you can get decent quality DTL videos of Arnold Palmer's 1960s swing, then you may be able to study his hitting action - because he was reputed to use a TGM hitter's action.

You mentioned that you define a punch elbow based on the position of the right elbow - but I don't personally understand this point because in a swinger, the golfer is usually powering the swing via a pivot-induced release of PA#4 followed by the passive/centrifugal release of PA#2, and the right elbow position may be behind the right hip area in the mid-downswing if the golfer doesn't actively adduct the right elbow between P4 and P5.5 to get his right elbow into its usual pitch location in front of the right hip. However, that sluggish right arm adduction action doesn't mean that the swinger is using a punch elbow motion. It simply means that he has what I call a floating/high right elbow due to a poor quality early downswing motion of his RFFW, which doesn't help to support the LAFW during the power package slotting phase of the downswing.

Jeff.

[virtuoso]

Feb 5, 2013 22:34:16 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

You mentioned that you define a punch elbow based on the position of the right elbow - but I don't personally understand this point because in a swinger, the golfer is usually powering the swing via a pivot-induced release of PA#4 followed by the passive/centrifugal release of PA#2, and the right elbow position may be behind the right hip area in the mid-downswing if the golfer doesn't actively adduct the right elbow between P4 and P5.5 to get his right elbow into its usual pitch location in front of the right hip. However, that sluggish right arm adduction action doesn't mean that the swinger is using a punch elbow motion. It simply means that he has what I call a floating/high right elbow due to a poor quality early downswing motion of his RFFW, which doesn't help to support the LAFW during the power package slotting phase of the downswing.

Jeff.

jeff, yes, I agree, all I define punch as is a floating right elbow--which I'm not a fan of. And, it's been my experience, that when the elbow floats, you need to turn your pivot more aggressively to make the path of the clubhead not go too far to the right. When I see Furyk turn his body very open to the target by impact, I feel that his right elbow position is one of the reasons why.

[imperfectgolfer]

Virtuoso,

I think that Furyk is unique in the sense that he uses a push elbow motion and not a punch elbow motion. I know of no other golfer who uses that push elbow motion for a full golf swing. According the the TGM classification system, there is no fanning motion in a push elbow motion and the hands are ahead of the right elbow during the right elbow push motion. Fanning of the right forearm occurs to a variable degree in a punch elbow motion.

I cannot understand why you are trying to use a punch elbow motion for your prototypical swinger's action - unless it is simply because you are experimenting with different swing actions.

I think that Sergio Garcia adducts his right arm very actively in his early downswing, but he positions his right elbow behind his right hip during his right arm adduction maneuver because he drops his hands more vertically downwards, and he then has to use a very active lower-mid torso rotation in his later downswing to square the clubface. I would still classify his right elbow motion as being a pitch elbow motion, rather than a punch elbow motion.



Note that he has his right palm parallel to the inclined plane in image 1, and his PP#3 is under the shaft - and that represents a pitch elbow action.

Jeff.