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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 4, 2013 10:43:22 GMT -5
Darius, You never present ANY evidence that supports your opinions. You make statements that people should blindly accept as fact. I have no problem with alternate opinions and truly believe there are way to many ways to get it done with a club to say "that won't work" but saying "Cotton said you could do this" does not make it a fact or scientifically valid.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 4, 2013 11:19:59 GMT -5
Greg,
Excuse me ? Isn't it a fact that great ballstrikers used slap-hinge release type that require to lose angles in wrists ? Isn't it a fact that not allowing the hinge to unload fully must affect momentum/velocity negatively ? Isn't it a fact that wrist movements are complex and the possibility the motion is in line with deviation 100% id as big as it isn't ?
What friggin' evidence should I bring to validate these simple theses ? I said I cannot bring calculations but even a kid in a primary school would confirm these theses.
Cheers
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 4, 2013 11:27:10 GMT -5
Jeff,
One needs to be extremely patient with you. Beats me why cannot you understand that club is being held by two independent hands, that are connected to two independent wrists. Let's start with simple things.
Answer these questions:
- can one wrist deviate while the other flex ?
- can both wrists deviate in the same time ?
- can both wrists flex in the same time ?
Your answers are ?
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 4, 2013 11:35:23 GMT -5
Greg, Excuse me ? Isn't it a fact that great ballstrikers used slap-hinge release type that require to lose angles in wrists ? Isn't it a fact that not allowing the hinge to unload fully must affect momentum/velocity negatively ? Isn't it a fact that wrist movements are complex and the possibility the motion is in line with deviation 100% id as big as it isn't ? What friggin' evidence should I bring to validate these simple theses ? I said I cannot bring calculations but even a kid in a primary school would confirm these theses. Cheers Please present a scientific paper or set of tests that show the results of rapidly unbending the left wrist in a slap hinge release so that they can be reviewed against not making such an action. It would also be nice if such tests had a accuracy componet involved in the testing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 11:44:49 GMT -5
Dariusz, Try and understand why the palms face each other at P3 in Martin Hall's backswing action and why both palms are parallel to the inclined plane (see image 4) - even though the left wrist upcocks while the right wrist dorsiflexes, which means that they are moving in planes that are 90 degrees opposed to each other. View this Martin Hall video if you want to get educated? You also responded to Greg as follows-: " Isn't it a fact that not allowing the hinge to unload fully must affect momentum/velocity negatively." The left wrist hinge does unload fully in a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/FLW between P4 and P7.5 - but the unloading of the left wrist due to the release of PA#2 occurs within the plane of radial deviation => ulnar deviation. Ernie Els has fully unloaded his left wrist, and fully released his club due to the passive release of PA#2, in image 4 - but he still has an intact LAFW/FLW. He never allows his left wrist to dorsiflex at any time point between P4 and P7.5. Here is Jamie Sadlowski's late downswing action Note that the back of his FLW remains parallel to the inclined plane between P6 and P7 - and that his left wrist unloads in the vertical plane of uncocking as it moves from radial deviation => ulnar deviation. However, at the same time, his right wrist operates in the horizontal plane of hinging and it moves from dorsiflexion to palmar flexion. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 4, 2013 11:49:41 GMT -5
passive release of PA#2
Not intentional. I think thats a important point in this dicussion, which is obviously not the position Darius is taking.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 4, 2013 11:59:08 GMT -5
I cannot do it since I do not know even if such a paper exists. My hypotheses are based on a common sense and basic knowledge of physics and anatomy.
Instead, show me a scientific paper that not letting the wrist bend = stopping the natural brings the same results as when it can bend freely.
Jeff,
You did not answer my questions. I don't want to hear about Hall or Els at the moment since neither are representative to more than only option of several. I asked 3 simple questions. Simply answer them.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 12:03:41 GMT -5
Dariusz,
I do not intend to waste my time answering inane general questions that are presented out-of-context.
You also answered Greg as follows-: "Instead, show me a scientific paper that not letting the wrist bend = stopping the natural brings the same results as when it can bend freely."
I highlighted the word "natural" because it is not natural to allow the left wrist to bend after impact - - if you play golf with an intact LAFW/FLW like Virtuoso. It would be very unnatural for Virtuoso to bend his left wrist after impact when his club was releasing within the plane of his LAFW (vertical plane of cocking/uncocking).
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 4, 2013 12:22:19 GMT -5
Jeff,
Understood. I won't be wasting my time in trying to listen to your inane argumentation then. I tried for n-th time but you're simply afraid of the truth.
As regards Virtuoso -- it's one of the options. That's why Cotton differentiated release types. Until you understand this simple thing, you are stuck in a retarded schemat forever.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 12:31:19 GMT -5
Dariusz,
The answer to your three questions depends on whether a golfer maintains an intact LAFW/FLW from P2 to P4, and from P4 to P7.5. I have previously stated that I believe that a golfer should maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the backswing, downswing and early followthrough. It is obviously optional to move the wrists in another manner - if one wants to be a slap-hinger, and if one wants not to play golf with an intact LAFW/FLW. I am not interested in describing the wrist motions needed for playing golf in a slap-hinging manner. I am only interested in the wrist motions needed to play golf with an intact LAFW/FLW - because virtually all present-day professional golfers use the intact LAFW/FLW technique.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 4, 2013 13:50:18 GMT -5
Jeff,
Now I can agree to your post finally to a big degree.
I agree that slap-hinge type is being used realtively very rarely on the highest level today. I also agree and easily can confirm that's because it is not optimal release type from all three -- and, as we can suspect, tour players are one of the most physically able ones with a lot of experience gained as kids.
What I wonder, however, is your willingness to describe only one option. I wouldn't be surprised if your work is aimed at describing highest level of the game. However, as I remember, you said you have aspirations to help everyday hackers -- therefore, you shouldn't omit a non-optimal but still valid model(s) that can make a golfer's life easier. Cotton, whom you dislike, but was a very successful teacher said that there are golfers who should try to eliminate supple wrists but also these who should add a bit of 'flick' into the release.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 16:43:10 GMT -5
Dariusz,
I believe that all golfers should play with an intact LAFW/FLW and that's why I only describe that method on my website. I don't believe that golfers should ever use a slap hinge release action. If a golfer isn't very flexible, then he may not be able to use a combined "CP-arm release action + no-roll hand release action" and he may have to use a combined "CF-arm release action + full-roll hand release action" - but he must still play golf with an intact LAFW/FLW in either scenario.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Mar 4, 2013 17:23:17 GMT -5
Jeff,
Very true, this is what Cotton described as crossover release type and it accompanies flawed body action due to imperfecies of pivot or lack of general elasticity.
I am of the opinion, contrary to yours though, that crossover release is a worse action comparing to slap-hinge one since it is more difficult to time it well. Note, that slap-hinge release does not change the square-to-the-arc relationship of the clubhead and the only one thing to time is clubhead's loft change which is, IMHO of course, relatively easy a thing.
The argument that help me say it is that there were some greats regarded as extremely great ballstrikers that used s-h release type while I cannot remember anyone achieving this status with a crossover release. Correct me if I am wrong here.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 4, 2013 17:44:07 GMT -5
Dariusz,
I believe that a crossover hand release action is unacceptable. I also believe that the slap hinge release action is unacceptable because one has to perfectly time the horizontal flipping motion of the left wrist to avoid pre-impact or through-impact flipping. Also, the degree of openess of the clubface angle (relative to the clubhead arc) changes during a flipping motion secondary to the fact that the clubshaft may not maintain exactly the same angle relative to the ground during the left wrist flipping phenomenon - because the left palm may not move perfectly perpendicular to the inclined plane during the left wrist flipping motion, and any imperfection will either close (or open) the clubface, and that "fact" means that left wrist flipping will not only affect the clubface loft.
Also, a crossover hand release action has no relationship to a full-roll hand release action because the latter release action should only start to happen after P7.1 and the biomechanics are different. A crossover hand release action is biomechanically equivalent to an undesirable roller hand release action in the sense that they both involve left forearm supination between P7 and P7.2. A full-roll hand release action should only start to happen after P7.1-7.2 and it should be biomechanically based on left upper arm external rotation and not left forearm supination.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Mar 4, 2013 21:49:54 GMT -5
Jeff, Very true, this is what Cotton described as crossover release type and it accompanies flawed body action due to imperfecies of pivot or lack of general elasticity. I am of the opinion, contrary to yours though, that crossover release is a worse action comparing to slap-hinge one since it is more difficult to time it well. Note, that slap-hinge release does not change the square-to-the-arc relationship of the clubhead and the only one thing to time is clubhead's loft change which is, IMHO of course, relatively easy a thing.
The argument that help me say it is that there were some greats regarded as extremely great ballstrikers that used s-h release type while I cannot remember anyone achieving this status with a crossover release. Correct me if I am wrong here. Cheers I agree with you. A bunch of very good players use what you call a slap-hinge, I call an underflip. Tend to be accurate because, as you say, the flipping does change the clubface orientation to the path. Even some legends like Hogan, Nicklaus and Snead under-flipped as they got older or, in Hogan's case, less powerful post-accident.
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