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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 20, 2017 5:55:36 GMT -5
I have produced a 2 hour 34 minute video where I thoroughly analyse Jim Hardy's "Release Actions".
In that video I compare Jim Hardy's LOP and RIT release patterns to the release patterns that happen during a TGM swinging action involving an intact LAFW (which is continuously "on-plane"). I have also compared Jim Hardy's RIT release action (which is a right arm swinging action) to my personal variant of right arm swinging.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 31, 2017 23:13:26 GMT -5
Parker Smith made the following comment yesterday in Jim Hardy's Facebook forum ( www.facebook.com/groups/883211211732649/ ) Note that he thinks that a golfer should bend the left wrist post-impact in order to allow the right arm to fully straighten and become aligned with the clubshaft. Chuck Evans (TGM instructor) responded as follows-: I presume that Chuck Evans really meant to use the word "interpreted" but he wrongly wrote "interrupted". However, it is possible that the word "interrupted" is more appropriate - considering Chuck Evans' "mentally-interrupted" understanding of TGM concepts. These next two pro golfer images represent my "idea" of what a golfer should look like post-impact - note that the clubshaft is straight-in-line with the left arm, and that the left wrist is not bent. Jordan Spieth Jon Rahm Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Oct 8, 2019 9:00:54 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
So far, I've watched about 40 minutes of your video and intend to watch the rest over a few sittings. From what I've seen so far, your presentation is fabulous.
One comment I have with regard to one of Hardy's release types has to do with getting the left hand out of the way by pulling it closer to the left thigh. I would think that it's far more natural and practical to "open" or rotate the left shoulder to accomplish this. Perhaps such is already implied?
S
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2019 17:17:36 GMT -5
Dr. Mann, So far, I've watched about 40 minutes of your video and intend to watch the rest over a few sittings. From what I've seen so far, your presentation is fabulous. One comment I have with regard to one of Hardy's release types has to do with getting the left hand out of the way by pulling it closer to the left thigh. I would think that it's far more natural and practical to "open" or rotate the left shoulder to accomplish this. Perhaps such is already implied? S Hardy does not want to have a golfer open the upper torso through impact for his LOP release subtype and he only recommends it for his RIT release subtype. He expects the shoulders to be parallel to the ball-target through impact in his LOP release action and he wants the arms to swing across the front of the torso using a LOP release technique (where the right hand rolls over the left hand as the right arm and right wrist straighten through impact.)
Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Oct 9, 2019 15:58:55 GMT -5
Dr. Mann, Thanks for the explanation and kudos to your production. Great presentation and in-depth explanation of numerous concepts. What struck me about Hardy's concept of release was his grouping into two types that are quite different ways of looking at the subject. Has your opinion changed about any characteristics of release since you presented this critique?
S
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 9, 2019 23:43:28 GMT -5
Dr. Mann, Thanks for the explanation and kudos to your production. Great presentation and in-depth explanation of numerous concepts. What struck me about Hardy's concept of release was his grouping into two types that are quite different ways of looking at the subject. Has your opinion changed about any characteristics of release since you presented this critique? S My opinions have not changed regarding the suboptimal quality of Hardy's LOP/RIT release patterns, and I have also not changed my opinions on the value of performing a DH-hand release action (rather than a non-DH hand release action) as described in topic number 6 of this review paper at perfectgolfswingreview.net/finneykinetics.html#topic6Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Oct 10, 2019 6:31:02 GMT -5
Dr Mann If there is forward bend of the shaft going into impact (like most , if not all , tour pro driver swings), it is impossible for a straightening right wrist to add any power to the swing.That's because the angular velocity of the swing is too fast for the wrists to physically keep up. So doesn't Jim Hardy's inference that the right wrist straightening (whipping) action is a source of power flawed? Further , Tutelman has mentioned that the forward bend of the shaft into impact is greater than expected (ie. if forward bend was only caused by something called 'Eccentric Loading') which suggests that the wrists are actually obstructing the angular velocity of the 'grip' section of the club. If the latter is actually happening in the golf swing (Tutelman says 'True Temper' data says it does for 5 irons and Driver swings), doesn't that suggest that there is some 'holding off' of the grip end of the shaft into impact for an 'intact LAFW with a bent right wrist', although 'I'm assuming' it's not affecting clubhead release speed by any appreciable amount? DG PS. The Tutelman article can be found here (7) Bend at impact is not just due to CG/centrifugal "pull". www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/ShaftLab3.php
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 10, 2019 9:07:09 GMT -5
DG, You asked-: " So doesn't Jim Hardy's inference that the right wrist straightening (whipping) action is a source of power flawed?" Yes - if the clubhead is already traveling optimally fast by P6.5 secondary to an efficient release of PA#4 => PA#2.
You asked-: "----- doesn't that suggest that there is some 'holding off' of the grip end of the shaft into impact for an 'intact LAFW with a bent right wrist', although 'I'm assuming' it's not affecting clubhead release speed by any appreciable amount?"
If a golfer performs a DH-hand release action correctly, then the fact that he has a bent right wrist through impact should not produce a "holding off" phenomenon if the golfer does not "run-out-of-right arm" and if he is applying a finite amount of push-pressure with his right palm against PP#1 (located over the base of the left thumb) so that the right hand keeps up with the left hand (from a targetwards speed perspective) through impact. A DHer should never consciously try to "hold off" the release of PA#2, and any negative wrist torque should occur naturally (unconsciously) due to the fact that the peripheral clubshaft can travel faster than the central clubshaft after P6 secondary to the club release phenomenon.
Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Oct 10, 2019 10:29:45 GMT -5
DG,
My take: I'm not one to classify "release types," but can explain it another way. I agree with Dr. Mann that Hardy's contention that right wrist flexion adds speed is flawed. When the hands are near the right thigh, the clubhead must travel at least 90 degrees to line up approx. perpendicular to the target line for impact. From a position of maximum or near maximum extension, the right hand (from a supinated position) will undergo palmar flexion because the clubhead travels at a far greater speed than the grip end of the club. Once a certain desired swing speed is attained, one cannot possibly add any more speed to the clubhead via muscular effort to flex. The same can be said for adding speed by straightening the remaining right arm bend. However, that is not to say that the faster the right wrist flexes or the faster the right arm straightens, the greater the clubhead speed, because it is the speed of the clubhead that determines the speed of straightening.
The major problem with those elite golfers who undertake to explain what they are doing and how to do it is that they don't understand what is actually happening or should happen
S.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 10, 2019 11:41:21 GMT -5
S, You wrote-: " From a position of maximum or near maximum extension, the right hand (from a supinated position) will undergo palmar flexion because the clubhead travels at a far greater speed than the grip end of the club." A significant amount of right wrist palmar flexion is not obligatory during a PA#2 release action because a golfer can move the right shoulder socket downplane while straightening the right elbow. Some pro golfers have very little right wrist palmar flexion happening between P6 and impact. Here is an example - featuring Cameron Champ.
One could reasonably claim that he has the maximum degree of right wrist extension at P4 (image 1) and at P6 (image 2) - but he has nearly the same amount of right wrist extension at impact (image 3) and that is possible because he moves his right shoulder socket far enough downplane between P6 and P7 so that he does not "run-out-of-right arm" before impact.
Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Oct 10, 2019 14:57:05 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
Take a look at this face-on view of Champ. (Turn the volume down as you're not going to want to listen to the drivel of the "analyst.") I agree with what you say about the right shoulder. Champ's upper body is usually quite open by impact. From this ultra slo mo view, his right hand is clearly flexing just before impact and, obviously, the right hand needs to be in some degree of extension for impact.
S
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 10, 2019 15:34:45 GMT -5
S,
Stop the Cameron Champ video at the 1:36 minute time point and you will note that although he is losing his marked degree of right wrist extension as he enters the early followthrough phase, that he still retains quite a lot of right wrist extension at impact. It is biomechanically very difficult to prevent some right wrist straightening after impact when using a driver and a CF-arm release action, and most pro DH-golfers, who use a no-roll hand release action combined with a CP-arm release action, only use it for their short iron swings.
Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Oct 10, 2019 17:29:33 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
I had seen that after impact. To me, at impact, he retains a very normal degree of extension. Even though I have no way of proving a theory, it's possible that those that "drive" to perhaps seek lower rate of closure continue to apply substantial force (arm speed) beyond the release point. Such may be counterproductive to maximum release speed but beneficial to accuracy. So many variables and quite difficult to be certain ...
S
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Oct 11, 2019 7:26:28 GMT -5
Am I correct in assuming where the pressure in the fingers and hands will be if there is forward shaft bend approaching impact (for a neutral grip)? That if the angular velocity of the club is so large (when forward bend is happening in the late downswing) , that any active release of PA1# and flexion/extension (left hand) and extension/flexion (right hand) will just not be enough to influence the golf swing? The golf club is actually pulling the hands/arms into impact so isn't it in the interest of the golfer to try and 'keep up' to prevent the clubshaft flipping the wrists too much 'before/at' impact and for several inches post impact (for DH purposes and as a buffer to stop clubface deflection for off-centre strikes)? DG
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Post by syllogist on Oct 11, 2019 8:37:33 GMT -5
DG,
"That if the angular velocity of the club is so large (when forward bend is happening in the late downswing) , that any active release of PA1# and flexion/extension (left hand) and extension/flexion (right hand) will just not be enough to influence the golf swing? The golf club is actually pulling the hands/arms into impact so isn't it in the interest of the golfer to try and 'keep up' to prevent the clubshaft flipping the wrists too much 'before/at' impact and for several inches post impact (for DH purposes and as a buffer to stop clubface deflection for off-centre strikes)? "
I'll pose a question in response to "influence the golf swing" question:
If, at the delivery position, before the club flees outward to make a 90 degree rotation to impact, the left hand is pronated and the right hand is supinated (the "Miller position"), and the effect of the fleeing outward of the club reverses those hand orientations, how does one "keep up" with the golf club?
If the hands are in the pronated/supinated positions and the shaft is in an acceptable position for release, and one does not do something to hinder release, "flipping" does not exist. To determine why some elite golfers appear to "flip" is to study the eccentric characteristics of those golfers' swings.
It is impossible to do something to minimize clubface deflection for off-center strikes.
S
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