Right Wrist Dorsiflexion -impact on Radial/Ulnar deviation

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann 

I've just been reading '2014: Revisions And Refinements In My Thinking Regarding Golf Swing Mechanics/Biomechanics' . Specifically this particular topic below:

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Topic number 1: The issue as to whether the right wrist has to upcock (radially deviate) during the backswing action.

In summary, I don't think that a golfer should worry about the i) timing and the ii) magnitude of any right wrist upcocking that will naturally occur during a backswing action. If he chooses to use a RFT backswing action (like Stuart Appleby) where the hands remain below the elbow plane, or very near to the elbow plane, during the early backswing action, then his right wrist will mainly dorsiflex (bend) between P1 and P2.5 and there will be very little accompanying right wrist upcocking motion. However, the amount of right wrist upcocking motion will automatically/naturally increase in the later backswing between P2.5 and P4 as the clubshaft move to a higher plane, that is steeper than the plane of motion of the right forearm.

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I have just been using the Nick Faldo pre-set drill with some success and was wondering why my strikes were more straighter than before and all I could think of was the fact that I limited any right wrist upcocking and retained that dorsiflexion more into impact by ensuring I didn't prematurely stall the turning of my upper torso . But can there be any independent upcocking of the right wrist if you have dorsiflexed it first?  When I dorsiflex my right wrist to its maximum (without undue tension) early in the backswing between P1 and P2, I am unable to independently radial deviate, and if I try to do it , it pronates the right forearm. Similarly , I cannot independently ulnar deviate the fully dorsiflexed right wrist , the whole right forearm has to supinate.

So if I wanted to swing on steeper plane later in the backswing (say from P2- P4)  couldn't I do it a few ways?

1. Pronate the left forearm (ie. while 'trying unsuccessfully' to independently upcock the 'fully dorsiflexed' right wrist), while the right humerus is externally rotating ( in the shoulder joint) and upper right arm abducting .  The latter happening while right arm cocking. 
2.  Not try and independently upcock the right 'fully dorsflexed' wrist, but only use the right humerus external rotation and abduction of upper arm to steepen the swing plane. Therefore limiting any right forearm pronation. The latter happening while right arm cocking

Wouldn't limiting any right forearm pronation in the backswing help minimise timing issues in the downswing and through impact?

[imperfectgolfer]

Aug 13, 2017 6:47:56 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann 

I've just been reading '2014: Revisions And Refinements In My Thinking Regarding Golf Swing Mechanics/Biomechanics' . Specifically this particular topic below:

--------------------
Topic number 1: The issue as to whether the right wrist has to upcock (radially deviate) during the backswing action.

In summary, I don't think that a golfer should worry about the i) timing and the ii) magnitude of any right wrist upcocking that will naturally occur during a backswing action. If he chooses to use a RFT backswing action (like Stuart Appleby) where the hands remain below the elbow plane, or very near to the elbow plane, during the early backswing action, then his right wrist will mainly dorsiflex (bend) between P1 and P2.5 and there will be very little accompanying right wrist upcocking motion. However, the amount of right wrist upcocking motion will automatically/naturally increase in the later backswing between P2.5 and P4 as the clubshaft move to a higher plane, that is steeper than the plane of motion of the right forearm.

--------------------

I have just been using the Nick Faldo pre-set drill with some success and was wondering why my strikes were more straighter than before and all I could think of was the fact that I limited any right wrist upcocking and retained that dorsiflexion more into impact by ensuring I didn't prematurely stall the turning of my upper torso . But can there be any independent upcocking of the right wrist if you have dorsiflexed it first?  When I dorsiflex my right wrist to its maximum (without undue tension) early in the backswing between P1 and P2, I am unable to independently radial deviate, and if I try to do it , it pronates the right forearm. Similarly , I cannot independently ulnar deviate the fully dorsiflexed right wrist , the whole right forearm has to supinate.

So if I wanted to swing on steeper plane later in the backswing (say from P2- P4)  couldn't I do it a few ways?

1. Pronate the left forearm (ie. while 'trying unsuccessfully' to independently upcock the 'fully dorsiflexed' right wrist), while the right humerus is externally rotating ( in the shoulder joint) and upper right arm abducting .  The latter happening while right arm cocking. 
2.  Not try and independently upcock the right 'fully dorsflexed' wrist, but only use the right humerus external rotation and abduction of upper arm to steepen the swing plane. Therefore limiting any right forearm pronation. The latter happening while right arm cocking

Wouldn't limiting any right forearm pronation in the backswing help minimise timing issues in the downswing and through impact?

I don't really understand your question.

You seem to be stating that you cannot independently ulnar or radially deviate your righ wrist when it is fully dorsiflexed. However, why are you thinking of only radially deviating (upcocking) your right wrist after you have already maximally dorsiflexed your right wrist? In the RFT, one is increasingly dorsiflexing the right wrist between P2 and P4 while trying to keep the right palm continuously parallel to a steepening inclined plane (which is the hand plane at P1 and at (or near) the TSP at P4). Do you not notice that your right wrist has to upcock when you try and keep the right palm parallel to the undersurface of the inclined plane as the inclined plane gets steeper between P2 and P4? Also, do you not notice that the right forearm has to supinate in order to keep the right palm parallel to the undersurface of a steepening inclined plane - while the right upper arm abducts and externally rotates?

Here are capture images from the Martin Hall video where he placed door hinges on his wrists.





Note that his right wrist is upcocked in image 3 and image 4 (compared to image 1).


Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks for your reply . It was difficult for me to explain so I made this 1 minute video showing my right wrist movement . I suspect this could be an issue specific to my swing because I set my wrists very early in the takeaway and I am therefore not performing an RFT action as per your explanation above.

youtu.be/Yht4hgDYYac

[imperfectgolfer]

Aug 15, 2017 10:35:09 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Many thanks for your reply . It was difficult for me to explain so I made this 1 minute video showing my right wrist movement . I suspect this could be an issue specific to my swing because I set my wrists very early in the takeaway and I am therefore not performing an RFT action as per your explanation above.

youtu.be/Yht4hgDYYac

Interesting video demo!

You seem to have a personal physical limitation where you lose the ability to radially deviate your right wrist when you maximally dorsiflex your right wrist and any attempt to move your right wrist upwards (radially) causes your right forearm to rotate counterclockwise. That physical limitation should not exist under normal circumstances. The relevant question is whether you therefore have an inability to get your right palm to become parallel to the steepening inclined plane between P2 and P4 so that it can optimally support the LAFW on the inclined plane. If you can still get your RFFW to support the intact LAFW correctly during the backswing and downswing, then that physical limitation may not be important if you use a TGM swinging (left arm swinging) technique. If you use a right arm swinging technique, then it probably doesn't really matter if the LAFW is intact, or whether it is perfectly parallel to the inclined plane, because the arm/clubshaft relationship is dictated by the right upper limb.

Can you post a video of your backswing and downswing motion?

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Aug 15, 2017 11:01:07 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Aug 15, 2017 10:35:09 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Many thanks for your reply . It was difficult for me to explain so I made this 1 minute video showing my right wrist movement . I suspect this could be an issue specific to my swing because I set my wrists very early in the takeaway and I am therefore not performing an RFT action as per your explanation above.

youtu.be/Yht4hgDYYac

Interesting video demo!

You seem to have a personal physical limitation where you lose the ability to radially deviate your right wrist when you maximally dorsiflex your right wrist and any attempt to move your right wrist upwards (radially) causes your right forearm to rotate counterclockwise. That physical limitation should not exist under normal circumstances. The relevant question is whether you therefore have an inability to get your right palm to become parallel to the steepening inclined plane between P2 and P4 so that it can optimally support the LAFW on the inclined plane. If you can still get your RFFW to support the intact LAFW correctly during the backswing and downswing, then that physical limitation may not be important if you use a TGM swinging (left arm swinging) technique. If you use a right arm swinging technique, then it probably doesn't really matter if the LAFW is intact, or whether it is perfectly parallel to the inclined plane, because the arm/clubshaft relationship is dictated by the right upper limb.

Can you post a video of your backswing and downswing motion?

Jeff.

Dr Mann - Yes , when I get some time at the range, I'll try and do a video (although I only have a small camera which isn't very good). There are MANY problems with my swing because of my lack of flexibility.