|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 3, 2020 15:48:25 GMT -5
Watch this AMG-produced video on motion of the trailing arm in the full golf swing. I will not discuss all the points that they discuss in their video, but I will focus my attention on their opinions expressed between the 9:00 - 9:30 minute time point of the video where Mike Granato states that it is a "killer move" to actively adduct the right arm towards the right side of the right mid-upper torso between P4 and P5.5 and to actively drive the right elbow to a pitch location in front of the right hip area by P5.5/P6. They both claim that this "killer move" is not seen in pro golfers. Their claim has zero merit. Here are three examples of pro golfers who actively adduct their right arm close towards the right side of their mid-torso during their early-mid downswing and who have their right elbow in a pitch location near the front of their right hip area at P5.5/P6. Dustin Johnson Cameron Champ
Look at his position in image 3. SW in the AMG-video stated that if a golfer gets into that position (with right lateral bend and the right elbow in front of the right hip area) that it will likely result in flipping. I think that he is 100% wrong and it actually allows Cameron Champ to come into impact with a partially bent right right elbow and significantly bent right wrist, which is very conducive to a DH-hand release action post-impact (as seen in images 4 and 5).
Sergio Garcia - Back view
Sergio Garcia - Face-on view Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 3, 2020 19:16:19 GMT -5
Here is another AMG-produced video.
I am glad to see that they have significantly improved their golf instruction advice on how to properly rotate the pelvis during the early downswing where they advise golfers to keep the right buttocks against the tush line while they pull the left buttocks back towards the tush line. It is much better than Sasho's advice on an "early extension" pelvic motion where the right buttocks leaves the tush line as the golfer simultaneously loses his anterior pelvic tilt and spinal bend inclination angle.
It is interesting that they advise golfers to also shallow the clubshaft during the early downswing, but they do not explain how to perform a clubshaft shallowing action (which requires an active right arm adduction manuever combined with external rotation of the right humerus and right forearm supination).
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 3, 2020 19:35:47 GMT -5
Here is another AMG-produced video. Note that both the amateur and pro golfers have a very poor quality right arm adduction maneuver and that their right elbow "floats in space" far away from the right side of their torso as they perform a punch elbow motion, and not a pitch elbow motion, during the P4 => P5.5 time period. The AMG golf instructors need to learn the value of using an active right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion of the right elbow - as seen in Cameron Champ's early-mid downswing action. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 4, 2020 13:28:24 GMT -5
Watch this AMG-video on how to shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing. In particular, watch the video between the 1:34 minute - 2:00 minute time point when MG and SW explain how to shallow the clubshaft in the downswing. MG states that one needs to preset the clubshaft on a slightly shallow ("laid-off") position at the P4 position (start of the downswing) and then perform a "normal" downswing action. MG does not define what represents a "normal" downswing action. SW defines it from his personal perspective as lowering the hands down the elbow plane, while keeping the same arm/wrist structure as existed at P4 throughout the P4 => P6 downswing time period. Here are capture images from the video where SW demonstrates the clubshaft shallowing action during the P4 => P6 time period. Image 1 is at the start of the downswing, image 2 is about midway down and image 3 is at the P6 position. The AMG-instructors call that turqoise-colored plane-line the elbow plane line (even though it is slightly steeper than the TGM definition of an elbow plane) and SW claims that he is simply dropping his hands down that plane line while keeping the same arm/wrist structure unchanged between P4 and P6. However, SW is obviously not keeping the same arm/wrist structure unchanged between P4 and P6. Consider what is really happening! Note how SW is pronating his left forearm between image 1 and image 2, which is biomechnaically mandatory if the clubshaft is going to shallow below the elbow plane line. Look at what is happening to his right arm/forearm during that same time period that will enable him to get his right palm to remain parallel to his left palm in image 2 - note that he is i) adducting his right arm towards the right side of his torso; ii) externally rotating his right humerus; and iii) supinating his right forearm. Note that his right elbow is in front of the right hip area at P6, and note that it is in a pitch position. Note that SW must have performed a pitch elbow motion of his right elbow, and not a punch elbow motion, between image 2 and image 3. How can the AMG-instructors be so mentally oblivious of the true "facts"? Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by syllogist on Feb 5, 2020 8:02:28 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
Did he make those rotational and pronatory and supinatory movements in each of his demonstrations or just the one of which you created stills?
It appeared to me that the theme of the video wasn't how to shallow the shaft in the sense of "laying it off" as the term is commonly used but rather how to bring the shaft from above the arbitrary straight line drawn to on that line. His instruction, unfortunately, was to make a normal down swing without explaining what happens in order for the shaft to approach that line.
I suppose that there is always a risk for instructors who use the internet for purposes of acquiring more clientele, as their instruction and explanations more often than not do not hold up to scrutiny.
S
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 5, 2020 10:09:26 GMT -5
Dr. Mann, Did he make those rotational and pronatory and supinatory movements in each of his demonstrations or just the one of which you created stills? It appeared to me that the theme of the video wasn't how to shallow the shaft in the sense of "laying it off" as the term is commonly used but rather how to bring the shaft from above the arbitrary straight line drawn to on that line. His instruction, unfortunately, was to make a normal down swing without explaining what happens in order for the shaft to approach that line. I suppose that there is always a risk for instructors who use the internet for purposes of acquiring more clientele, as their instruction and explanations more often than not do not hold up to scrutiny. S He made the same left/right arm motions (as described) in all the swings where he demonstrated clubshaft shallowing. I did not selectively choose an outlier swing. My definition of clubshaft shallowing does not include creating a "laid-off" clubshaft where the clubshaft is off-plane and an imaginary line drawn out from the butt end of the club points well outside the ball-target line. The AMG instructors used the same concept of clubshaft shallowing than me where the clubshaft moves from a higher plane (eg. TSP which is steeper than the elbow plane) to a shallower plane (eg. elbow plane) while still keeping the clubshaft on-plane. If you watch Shaun Webb's regular golf swing action, he always shallows the clubshaft to a small degree, and he routinely uses a right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion to a variable degree - although he does not exaggerate the maneuver like Dustin Johnson and Cameron Champ. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 5, 2020 10:51:34 GMT -5
S, Let's consider Shaun Webb's "real life" golf swing action - where he is not demonstrating some golf instructional point.
Here are capture images of his downswing action.
Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5.5 and image 3 is at P6.
Note that his clubshaft is roughly on the TSP at P4 and it has shallowed down to the elbow plane by P5.5.
Note how much he has adducted his right arm towards the right side of his torso by P5.5. Note that his hands are further away from the target than his right elbow, which means that he is using a pitch elbow motion (which requires external rotation of the right humerus and right forearm supination).
Note that his right elbow is in a pitch location near his right hip joint area at P6.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 5, 2020 11:16:00 GMT -5
I'm confused by that AMG video. Is SW trying to replicate the pros downswing on the left while actually demonstrating it incorrectly?
The Pro swing clubshaft doesn't seem to have shallowed because it looks to have remained parallel and above that drawn plane line by P4 , then 'shifted' downwards (clubshaft still remaining parallel) and onto that plane line by P5 all the way to P7.
If SW was trying to replicate that Pros clubshaft path , then he has failed because he actually shallows his clubshaft compared to his hand path.
So this leads onto another question I have . If the Pro is not shallowing the club relative to his hand plane (with an intact LFFW) , then does that mean he is not pitching his right elbow coupled with external rotation of the humerus?
DG
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 5, 2020 12:06:51 GMT -5
I'm confused by that AMG video. Is SW trying to replicate the pros downswing on the left while actually demonstrating it incorrectly? The Pro swing clubshaft doesn't seem to have shallowed because it looks to have remained parallel and above that drawn plane line by P4 , then 'shifted' downwards (clubshaft still remaining parallel) and onto that plane line by P5 all the way to P7. If SW was trying to replicate that Pros clubshaft path , then he has failed because he actually shallows his clubshaft compared to his hand path. So this leads onto another question I have . If the Pro is not shallowing the club relative to his hand plane (with an intact LFFW) , then does that mean he is not pitching his right elbow coupled with external rotation of the humerus? DG I think that the pro golfer depicted in GEARS on the left is shallowing his clubshaft, but far less than SW. His clubshaft is shallowing down from being just above the elbow plane at P4 to being on the elbow plane by P5.5 so there is small degree of clubshaft shallowing happening between P4 and P5.5. It looks to me like he is adducting his right arm and he could be using a pitch elbow motion - but one cannot be certain if one does not have a face-on viewing perspective. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by syllogist on Feb 6, 2020 6:27:49 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you cherry picked stills to make a point. I merely noticed that the first still showed SW looking at the camera and wondered if he was performing his real swing.
Where you note the right forearm supination to shallow the shaft, it looks like it happens at transition. Certainly not a dramatic move. I can see that it is not a result of the influence of SMK's research and can see why he calls for then making a "normal" downswing. In my opinion, that very early supinatory move is SW's means of creating an "intended club path" during the downswing, which is obviously not as steep as the backswing path.
S
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 6, 2020 10:39:11 GMT -5
S, You wrote-: " Where you note the right forearm supination to shallow the shaft, it looks like it happens at transition. Certainly not a dramatic move". To shallow a clubshaft at the start of the downswing, the most important biomechanical move is a right arm adduction maneuver (that drops the right elbow below the left elbow) and that is supplemented by a variable degree of external rotation of the right humerus and a variable degree of right forearm supination so that the right palm can become parallel to the shallower clubshaft plane. How dramatic the "move" is depends on how dramatically the golfer shallows the clubshaft between P4 and P5, and it is very dramatic in Sergio Garcia's early downswing action - see the change between image 1 and image 2 below. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 6, 2020 12:55:42 GMT -5
S, You wrote-: " Where you note the right forearm supination to shallow the shaft, it looks like it happens at transition. Certainly not a dramatic move". To shallow a clubshaft at the start of the downswing, the most important biomechanical move is a right arm adduction maneuver (that drops the right elbow below the left elbow) and that is supplemented by a variable degree of external rotation of the right humerus and a variable degree of right forearm supination so that the right palm can become parallel to the shallower clubshaft plane. How dramatic the "move" is depends on how dramatically the golfer shallows the clubshaft between P4 and P5, and it is very dramatic in Sergio Garcia's early downswing action - see the change between image 1 and image 2 below. Jeff. Dr Mann I suspect the polar opposite would be Phil Mickelson who doesn't shallow the shaft , yet both are relatively long hitters. When I look at the PGA Tour stats and compare SG with PM SG : Driving Accuracy 64.63% Driving Distance -318 yds (longest drive) PM Driving Accuracy -54.89% Driving Distance - 305 yds SG's swing biomechanics predisposes him to be able to use DH hand release action compared to the roller release of PM which accounts for the difference in driving accuracy stats. But is it also fair to surmise that PM is using an active pivot and left lead 'right' shoulder girdle muscles to generate hand speed (release of PA#4) but on a non-optimal hand path, whereas SG is using his rear right shoulder girdle muscles to a greater extent creating hand speed on a more optimal path? That although PM is using a non-optimal hand path he is creating less compression on his spine at impact than SG? DG
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 6, 2020 13:47:38 GMT -5
DG, I have often compared PM's non-clubshaft shallowing golf swing action to SG's extreme degree of clubshaft shallowing as being polar opposites, but I know of no evidence that the phenomenon of clubshaft shallowing promotes a greater driving distance, or better driving accuracy. Also, SG's marked degree of clubshaft shallowing does not increase the likelihood of him being a DHer (rather than a non-DHer) through impact. In fact, SG is only a borderline DHer and he rolls a lot through impact (but he is not a roller like PM). Here are capture images of SG's followthrough. Note how the clubshaft bypasses his left arm between P7.1 and P7.4.
Note that he does not move his left arm targetwards fast enough between P7 and P7.4 so that he can more easily match the angular velocity of his left arm to the angular velocity of his clubshaft. Note that he is "running-out-of-right arm" and straightening his right wrist while pronating his right forearm too much that contributes to excessive left hand roll motion between P7 and P7.4. Compare SG's borderline DH-hand release action (which ends at about P7.1 - P7.2) to Cameron Champ's superb DH-hand release action. Note that Cameron Champ has an intermediate degree of clubshaft shallowing (like Adam Scott, Justin Rose, Rory McIlroy and Henrik Stenson).
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 6, 2020 18:30:59 GMT -5
Dr Mann You said "but I know of no evidence that the phenomenon of clubshaft shallowing promotes a greater driving distance"But doesn't that conflict with a previous post where you mentioned the below (see bold and underlined sections)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3) To shallow the clubshaft during the P4 => P5.5 time period, a golfer can use an active "right arm adduction maneuver combined with a right forearm pitch elbow motion" to optimize the clubshaft-shallowing action. That same active "right arm adduction maneuver combined with a right forearm pitch elbow motion" can be used to shape the hand arc path in order to optimize a golfer's ability to maintain lag for longer and to optimise the release of PA#2.Consider the hand arc path of Dustin Johnson's driver swing and short iron swings. Note the large difference in hand arc path shape between his driver swing (image 1) and his short iron swing (image 2). The hand arc path shape of his driver swing is well suited to i) maintaining lag for longer by maintaining the "straightish" section of his hand arc path to well below waist level and to ii) releasing PA#2 with greater speed by having a "tight curve" hand arc path between P5.5 and P6.2. Dustin Johnson's active "right arm adduction maneuver combined with a right forearm pitch elbow motion" plays a major role in selectively shaping his hand arc path during the early-mid downswing time period. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With regards the club shallowing (while still on plane) relative to the hand path , doesn't more shallowing also mean the lead arm has to pitch more and create a larger PA3 angle? That there is an inverse relationship between shallowing and lead arm pitching? That having a larger PA3 angle will create a more manageable smoother release of PA#3 (ie. for a neutral grip) with a lower ROC than say PM who has a small PA3 angle (higher ROC)? Wouldn't a golfer with a more manageable PA#3 release (intact LAFW) be more accurate than a golfer whose PA#3 release has a high ROC? DG
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 6, 2020 19:37:08 GMT -5
DG, You quoted me as follows-: " To shallow the clubshaft during the P4 => P5.5 time period, a golfer can use an active "right arm adduction maneuver combined with a right forearm pitch elbow motion" to optimize the clubshaft-shallowing action. That same active "right arm adduction maneuver combined with a right forearm pitch elbow motion" can be used to shape the hand arc path in order to optimize a golfer's ability to maintain lag for longer and to optimise the release of PA#2." It is true that an active right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion can be used to i) shallow the clubshaft between P4 and P6 and it can also be used to ii) optimise the hand arc path in order to delay the release of PA#2 to P5.5 and then create a more efficient release of PA#2 after P5.5. However, it is possible to optimise the hand arc path without shallowing the clubshaft by avoiding the larger magnitude of "external rotation of the right humerus + right forearm supination" required to shallow the clubshaft. Consider an example - Jamie Sadlowski. Here is his hand arc path. JS uses a very active right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion to increase the "straightish section" of his hand arc path between point 1 and point 2 and thereby optimally create a "tighter turn" as he reaches and then bypasses the P5.5 position. However, he does not simultaneously pronate his left forearm more and supinate his right forearm more between P4 and P5.5 to the degree required to simultaneously shallow his clubshaft. Here is a DTL view of his hand arc path. Note that he does not shallow his clubshaft between P4 (image 1) and P5.5 (image 3). You also wrote-: "With regards the club shallowing (while still on plane) relative to the hand path , doesn't more shallowing also mean the lead arm has to pitch more and create a larger PA3 angle? That there is an inverse relationship between shallowing and lead arm pitching? That having a larger PA3 angle will create a more manageable smoother release of PA#3 (ie. for a neutral grip) with a lower ROC than say PM who has a small PA3 angle (higher ROC)?
Wouldn't a golfer with a more manageable PA#3 release (intact LAFW) be more accurate than a golfer whose PA#3 release has a high ROC?" I can agree with your line-of-reasoning and I also intuitively expect that having a larger accumulator #3 angle during the release of PA#3 will produce a smoother and more manageable release of PA#3, which theoretically should make it easier to time the release of PA#3 in order to get a square clubface at impact. However, I have no "real life" evidence that golfers who shallow the clubshaft a lot (like Sergia Garcia) have better driving accuracy results than golfers who use an intermediate degree of clubshaft shallowing (like Henrik Stenson, Justin Rose and Adam Scott). Jeff.
|
|