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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 2:39:52 GMT -5
Without sufficient left hip internal rotation the pelvis and torso are unable to continue rotating counterclockwise fully after p7. As a work around, the solution is to allow the left foot to spin CCW at the same time so end-range left hip internal rotation limitation does not stop or stall the rotating pelvis. This way, the left pelvis and left femur can keep rotating together and a full pelvic and torso follow-through position can be attained.
Of course, some PGA golfers have excellent left hip internal rotation and can keep their left foot planted and immovable throughout the entire follow-through. However, there are a number of pros who allow their their left foot to spin CCW, apparently as the only way to: 1) work around their limited left hip internal rotation, 2) enjoy a complete and full pelvic and torso rotation, and 3) minimize the rotational stress put on the left hip joint.
Here are some examples of pros who spin their left foot after impact to avoid hitting the "left hip internal rotation wall":
It is clear that this work around move is fairly common on the PGA tour.
Here is a show-off example who has the left hip internal rotation range of motion needed to fully rotate the pelvis and torso with very little left foot motion.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 9:07:28 GMT -5
Hi UT
Very interesting videos. Does the lead foot spinning on the heel or sole have some significance whether the golfer is defined as a rear foot or front foot golfer?
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 10:43:51 GMT -5
DG, I made a couple of edits. Hopefully, it is more accurate now. Good question about the rear-foot golfer versus front-foot golfer. I would think a rear-foot golfer like Bubba Watson spins the lead foot CCW during the forward swing simply because he or she is pivoting off the rear foot and the lead foot is unloaded. However, it would be interesting to know if rear-foot golfers decided to swing that way because of limited lead hip internal rotation, and their work around or fix was to simply pivot off of their rear foot instead of spinning out the lead foot. It is hard to believe Bubba has limited lead hip IR. I would guess he chose to rear-foot swing because he could swing faster or it allowed him to more easily manipulate his arm swing to curve the ball to the left or to the right!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 11:39:27 GMT -5
My personal opinion is that there are two reasons that there is naturally a counterclockwise torque being applied to the left femur during the early followthrough that will induce it to also rotate counterclockwise - i) the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis and ii) the contraction of the left gluteus maximus muscle. Most pro golfers will therefore manifest a variable degree of counterclockwise rotation of the left femur during the early followthrough in response to those torques. When the left femur rotates counterclockwise during the followthrough, it is natural for the left leg and left foot to also rotate counterclockwise and that's why the left foot spins counterclockwise in many pro golfers. Note that Xander Schauffele's upper left femur also rotates counterclockwise to roughly the same degree as those other featured pro golfers, but he has enough flexibility in his left hip/left knee/left ankle joints that allows the left femur to rotate counterclockwise without him having to spin his left foot counterclockwise.
I think that there are two general patterns of left foot spinning during the followthrough. In the one pattern, where the left heel is solidly grounded and weight-pressure loaded at impact, the left forefoot spins counterclockwise while there is little rotary motion of the left heel (as seen in Gary Woodland's swing and Hideki Matsuyama's swing). In the second pattern where the left forefoot is weight-pressure loaded at impact and the left heel is far less weight-pressure loaded at impact, then it is more likely that the left heel will spin more counterclockwise than the left forefoot. Reverse foot golfers will likely manifest that second pattern, while front foot golfers can manifest either pattern depending on which part of the left foot is primarily pressure-loaded at impact.
Jeff.
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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 14:23:28 GMT -5
Jeff, thanks for your input. I do agree that the left femur does react to the CCW rotation of the pelvis and the contraction of the left glute max. In both cases, the left femur definitely wants to externally rotate. In reality, though, the left pelvis needs to rotate much more than the left femur, assuming the left foot is stable and does not move. It is clear that the left femur does rotate externally some during the follow-through, but there comes a point where the pelvis must rotate much more, and then the entire motion is classified as "left hip internal rotation." In essence, the left pelvis rotates CCW more than the left femur (across the entire follow-through), so relative to the pelvis the left femur has internally rotated (which I know you fully understand).
A person needs to be able to internally rotate the left hip about 45 degrees to accommodate a normal full follow-through. To check this, you can lie on the floor (face up), flex and elevate both knees above the floor, position both fists together, and place your fists snugly between your knees. Then, rotate your feet outward to check hip internal rotation range of motion, based on how far your lower legs flare outward. I get about 15-20 degrees of motion (if I round up) and this is why I need to spin my left foot during my follow-through. If you can rotate the feet/lower legs outward to about 45 degrees, you are lucky. Another way to see this is to simply do it while standing on one leg while rotating the floating straight leg into IR. Again, 45 degrees of inward foot/femur rotation (with no cheating) is good left hip IR.
I can't really see why any golfer would want to spin the left foot unless they had no other choice (or the player is a reverse-foot swinger). I know I wouldn't. I would much rather keep my left foot stable and flat. My poor left hip IR makes this impossible. If I want a sore left hip joint, all I have to do is force my pelvis to rotate over a fixed and stable left foot during a driver follow-through. Ouch.
But, regardless of why pros spin their left foot, I think the most important lesson is that some do, and that doing so is absolutely fine and acceptable. We don't want a golfer to think that he needs to copy Xander and keep his left foot immovable when this ruins the golf swing follow-through or leads to a left hip injury. Luckily, there is a "work around" that is simple to do, doesn't mess up the overall quality of the swing, and helps to lower the risk of a hip injury for the inflexible.
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 16:56:17 GMT -5
UG,
You wrote-: "I do agree that the left femur does react to the CCW rotation of the pelvis and the contraction of the left glute max. In both cases, the left femur definitely wants to externally rotate. In reality, though, the left pelvis needs to rotate much more than the left femur, assuming the left foot is stable and does not move. It is clear that the left femur does rotate externally some during the follow-through, but there comes a point where the pelvis must rotate much more, and then the entire motion is classified as "left hip internal rotation." In essence, the left pelvis rotates CCW more than the left femur (across the entire follow-through), so relative to the pelvis the left femur has internally rotated (which I know you fully understand)."
I think that there is no intrinsic reason why the pelvis must rotate more than the upper part of the left femur. If the belt buckle faces the target at the end of the followthrough, why can the anterior aspect of the left upper femur also not face the target at the end of the followthrough (which will likely neccesitate a left foot spinning phenomenon to achieve that high level of counterclockwise rotation of the left upper femur)? I think that left foot spinning is advantageous in the sense that it lessens left hip joint stress and it also produces less impedance to the continued counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis if it allows the left hip joint to avoid a restrictive condition of forced IR that could potentially occur if the left foot did not spin counterclockwise.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 18:47:59 GMT -5
UG
Been looking at some of the older era golfers like Palmar and Nicklaus and they all seem to swivel that left foot. Maybe there needs to be redesign of the soft spikes specific for the lead foot that would restrict a push towards the target line but not restrict the left foot swivel in the follow-through.
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 19, 2020 21:33:36 GMT -5
DG, I think the influence of the soft spikes needs to be solved by the player. Some players simply lift the entire left foot off the ground (like Patrick Reed and others). I supinate the left foot/ankle and then pivot on the outer edge of my left foot, similar to Jordan Spieth. I believe soft spikes in the left shoe are useful from p4 to p7, so I think the golfer simply needs to raise the sole of the left shoe enough to clear the spikes during the follow-through, by supinating the foot/ankle slightly. However, another option is to raise the heel and spin around on the left forefoot. Not sure which is best.
Jeff, it is possible that a player may prefer to spin his left foot outward, even though he has normal left hip ROM. It certainly might help with the rotational flow of the follow-through. Try this: Take a practice swing with your left foot turned inward about 45-degrees (i.e., placing your left femur into full IR) without moving your left foot. Most likely this will greatly diminish your follow-through pelvic rotation unless you have more left hip IR than 45 degrees. Then, take another practice swing with your left hip turned into full external rotation (with the foot turned parallel with your target line). Here you will not reach your left hip IR limitation until you fully rotate your pelvis, so you should have much more pelvic rotation. This example should highlight the value of left hip IR for a given golfer. With it we have more freedom to turn the pelvis with a relatively stable left foot, whereas without it we are severely limited and must use a work around (spin the left foot). Some players rotate the left foot (femur) into external rotation before the swing. Turning the left foot outward about one-quarter turn, as Hogan instructed, is common. The reason for this (illustrated above) is that it allows the player a bit more ROM before they hit their left hip IR end-range. Or, the player can also spin the left foot CCW during the follow-through as an additional strategy.
In any event, the pelvis and torso must rotate fully during the follow-through, and this can be accomplished with i) normal left hip IR, ii) turning the left foot outward slightly at address, or iii) spinning the left foot CCW during the swing which allows the left femur and pelvis to rotate together as a unit.
An interesting example on this topic is Hideki Matsuyama. At address his left foot is straight with no left hip ER, and then during the swing (after p7) he spins his left foot 90-degrees during his follow-through. Perhaps he likes to see both feet straight at address so he can look directly across his toe line to more easily align (aim) his body during his pre-shot routine.
Finally, I believe the amount the pelvis rotates more than the left femur during the follow-through simply depends on the golfer's left hip IR. If a golfer has 60-degrees of left hip IR, then he is able to rotate his pelvis 60 degrees more than his left femur. This implies he would only need 30 degrees of ankle/foot motion to allow his pelvis to rotate fully (90-degrees past impact) and face the target. On the other hand, a golfer with only 20-degrees of left hip IR is able to only rotate his pelvis 20 degrees more than his left femur during the follow-through. This implies he would need an additional 70 degrees of ankle/foot motion to allow his pelvis to rotate fully (90-degrees past impact) and face the target. Thus, the more left hip IR one has, the less left foot supination or spinning is needed to fully rotate the pelvis. Conversely, the less left hip IR one has, the more left foot supination or spinning is needed to fully rotate the pelvis.
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 20, 2020 11:05:24 GMT -5
UG, You wrote-: " I think the influence of the soft spikes needs to be solved by the player. Some players simply lift the entire left foot off the ground (like Patrick Reed and others). I supinate the left foot/ankle and then pivot on the outer edge of my left foot, similar to Jordan Spieth. I believe soft spikes in the left shoe are useful from p4 to p7, so I think the golfer simply needs to raise the sole of the left shoe enough to clear the spikes during the follow-through, by supinating the foot/ankle slightly. However, another option is to raise the heel and spin around on the left forefoot. Not sure which is best." The word "supinate" is not appropriate for describing foot motions. The correct anatomical description would be "invert" or "evert" to describe the rolling motions of the foot.
Regarding the two options, a golfer cannot arbitrarily choose which one to use. If a golfer uses my preferred pelvic rotary motion using the sequential muscular contraction of different pelvic girdle muscles (right sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles before P5.5 => left-sided gluteus maximus muscle after P5.5) then he will likely end up a as front-foot golfer with most of his pressure-loading over the left heel at impact. Under those circumstances, he cannot lift up and spin the heel, and he can only spin the forefoot (like Gary Woodland and Hideki Matsuyama). A golfer who has most of his pressure-loading at impact located in the outer half of the left midfoot area can invert the foot like Jordan Spieth. A golfer who has most of his pressure-loading under the right foot at impact with some under the left forefoot will most likely spin the heel.
You also wrote-: "Some players rotate the left foot (femur) into external rotation before the swing. Turning the left foot outward about one-quarter turn, as Hogan instructed, is common. The reason for this (illustrated above) is that it allows the player a bit more ROM before they hit their left hip IR end-range." You reasoning makes sense when it comes to the ease of pelvic rotation through impact. However, many golfers find that setting up at address with the left foot flared-out limits their ability to rotate their pelvis during the backswing and they prefer to setup with the left foot perpendicular to the ball-target line (like Hideki Matsuyama). You also wrote-: "Finally, I believe the amount the pelvis rotates more than the left femur during the follow-through simply depends on the golfer's left hip IR. If a golfer has 60-degrees of left hip IR, then he is able to rotate his pelvis 60 degrees more than his left femur. This implies he would only need 30 degrees of ankle/foot motion to allow his pelvis to rotate fully (90-degrees past impact) and face the target. On the other hand, a golfer with only 20-degrees of left hip IR is able to only rotate his pelvis 20 degrees more than his left femur during the follow-through. This implies he would need an additional 70 degrees of ankle/foot motion to allow his pelvis to rotate fully (90-degrees past impact) and face the target. Thus, the more left hip IR one has, the less left foot supination or spinning is needed to fully rotate the pelvis. Conversely, the less left hip IR one has, the more left foot supination or spinning is needed to fully rotate the pelvis."
You seemingly measure a person's left hip IR range by assessing his ability to rotate the left femur in the left hip joint when the pelvis is stationary. If true, then it does not necessarily equate to the same amount of comfortable left hip joint IR a golfer can withstand if the pelvis is in motion while the left femur is stabilised by pressure-loading the left foot. However, your overall reasoning seemingly makes sense that if a golfer can comfortably allow his left hip joint to go into IR through impact without it restricting his counterclockwise pelvic rotary motion, then his left femur will be torqued less in a counterclockwise direction, which means that he will be less likely to spin his left foot through impact (like Xander Scauffele). Jeff.
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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 20, 2020 13:42:14 GMT -5
Jeff,
That makes sense.
Supination is defined as the simultaneous motion of subtalar inversion, ankle plantar flexion, and forefoot adduction, whereas pronation involves simultaneous subtalar eversion, ankle dorsiflexion, and forefoot abduction.
The primary factor that determines the degree of backswing pelvic and torso rotation is right hip IR range of motion. You can do the same activity to see this. Place the right foot in five positions from turned in to turned out and see what happens to your backswing pelvic and torso rotation. With my poor hip IR, on both sides, my backswing rotation is very limited with my right foot turned in or slightly turned out. When my right foot is turned out about 45 degrees my backswing begins to look professional grade, with my upper torso facing the target. It is interesting to see how much right hip IR range of motion influences backswing rotation, which is similar to how left hip IR influences follow-through rotation, other than a golfer can spin the left foot to finish the follow-through.
With that said, I think you are right about the pros spinning their left foot as a rotation flow preference. They obviously have normal right hip IR during their backswing (with a straight or slightly turned out right foot) and demonstrate plenty of backswing pelvic and torso rotation. I'm sure they have equal and normal bilateral hip IR, so they probably only spin the left foot as a preference rather than a requirement.
I guess I either need to increase my internal hip rotation range of motion, or swing with both feet turned outward 45 degrees, or both. If I can increase hip IR by 15-degrees I'll only have to turn my feet outward 30 degrees!
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 20, 2020 13:48:18 GMT -5
UG,
You wrote-: "Supination is defined as the simultaneous motion of subtalar inversion, ankle plantar flexion, and forefoot adduction, whereas pronation involves simultaneous subtalar eversion, ankle dorsiflexion, and forefoot abduction."
Interesting!
I have never heard of that fact - so it's a "live and learn" moment for me!
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 23, 2020 11:53:33 GMT -5
UG, You wrote-: " Supination is defined as the simultaneous motion of subtalar inversion, ankle plantar flexion, and forefoot adduction, whereas pronation involves simultaneous subtalar eversion, ankle dorsiflexion, and forefoot abduction." Interesting! I have never heard of that fact - so it's a "live and learn" moment for me! Jeff. Dr Mann/UG So as we get older would it be more fruitful to improve our hip flexibility rather than anything to do with the spine (especially if we have very little pelvic/torso separability)? DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 23, 2020 18:25:48 GMT -5
Testing, testing. Posted several hours ago but now there is nothing?
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Post by utahgolfer on Feb 23, 2020 19:17:56 GMT -5
Not sure what happened. Try again.
DG,
There are three main sticking points to backswing and forward swing rotation: hip IR range of motion, thoracic spine rotation range of motion, and upper cervical spine rotation range of motion. Each player may have a different sticking point, so it is important to evaluate which of these three areas is the main problem, and then to work to improve that main sticking point. What is nice is that even a small improvement of 10-degrees in ROM can make a big difference for a given player. This will never transform a swing into elite status, but relative to the player it can be very positive and meaningful.
I am currently working to improve my hip IR as my main sticking point and have learned some principles and techniques from reputable fitness experts that hopefully will help me to do this.
I would be happy to share my mobility-improvement program with you, if you would like.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 23, 2020 20:33:35 GMT -5
Not sure what happened. Try again. DG, There are three main sticking points to backswing and forward swing rotation: hip IR range of motion, thoracic spine rotation range of motion, and upper cervical spine rotation range of motion. Each player may have a different sticking point, so it is important to evaluate which of these three areas is the main problem, and then to work to improve that main sticking point. What is nice is that even a small improvement of 10-degrees in ROM can make a big difference for a given player. This will never transform a swing into elite status, but relative to the player it can be very positive and meaningful. I am currently working to improve my hip IR as my main sticking point and have learned some principles and techniques from reputable fitness experts that hopefully will help me to do this. I would be happy to share my mobility-improvement program with you, if you would like. UG Hi UG Many thanks for this. I work out with weights most of the time to prevent muscle loss while also doing some core exercises (like planks, leg raises , etc) but I've not worked on my flexibility in earnest for a long time . I've never been able to touch my toes even when I was in my teens (could only get my hands half-way down my ankles). One thing I have noticed that seems to be getting worse every year is difficulty in bending my knees. It's becoming quite embarrassing on the golf course that I have to go down on bended knee to pick the ball out of the hole. I think as a starter , I might start doing these exercises that you demonstrated in your you-tube video below and see how it goes from there. DG PS. I have stopped using the weight machines in the gym as I found that I wasn't engaging core muscles to help stabilise me . I now work out a lot at home using free weights and then do the cardio in the gym.
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