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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 5, 2020 16:27:13 GMT -5
In this thread, I would like to discuss three of Milo Lines instructional videos.
In the first video, Milo shows how the rotational angle differential between the pelvis and shoulders should not change from p4 to p5.5. He states that this is a key factor in preventing an OTT swing path. Of course, it requires hula hula flexibility to establish this differential from p1 to p4, and it probably requires hula hula flexibility to maintain it until p5.5. However, from his example, it is clear that rotating the pelvis at least as fast as the shoulders to p5.5, helps to keep the right shoulder from prematurely encroaching into OTT air space. It is also clear that his left shoulder is rotating horizontally, with no early right lateral bend as a way to prevent the right shoulder from rotating OTT.
in the second video, Milo discusses the idea that golfers often swing OTT due to a desire to move the club head into the back of the ball too quickly. He shows how independent arm motion is actually quite small from p1 to p4, with most arm motion due to torso rotation. And, since it is primarily torso rotation that swings the club to the top, it should be primarily torso rotation that brings the arms back to the ball into impact. Because of this body rotation, Milo concludes that the club head should actually swing away from the target through much of the downswing, with no feeling of swinging the club head early into the ball with an independent arm swing. This he suggests prevents the arm swing from coming OTT, prevents the early tipping the club shaft, and avoids an out to in swing path.
In the third video, Milo demostrates one of his favorite hitting stations. Here he discusses the importance of slightly lowering the overall swing path using the squat move from p4 to p4.5, along with swinging the arms low enough and shallowing the club shaft so the club doesn't run into the pre-positioned OTT swing path block aid.
Milo appears to offer a 1, 2, 3 punch to get the body moving correctly from p4 to p5.5. The first line of defense is to get the sequence right with the pelvis turning at least as much as the shoulders, with no early shoulder spinning. The second line of defense is to make sure the arms don't over-accelerate, move too independently, and disrupt the kinematic sequence. The third line of defense is to bring it all together using an effective hitting station with meaningful feedback.
Does anyone have any corrections to Milo's instruction or additional tips or necessary clarification?
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 5, 2020 18:32:25 GMT -5
Hi UG Looks like Milo's 2nd video is very similar to Eric Cogorno's video below both promoting an early straightening of the right elbow. It seems that results from 3D systems like GEARS, who state that PGA Pros start to unbend their right arm from P4, is being used for instruction purposes. How can one convince PGA golf instructors that 3D systems might not be 100% correct? DG PS. looks like Eric and Milo have been working together on recent videos. Both of them are promoting the breaking of an intact LFFW in the early downswing by increased extension of right wrist and flexion of left wrist. Both of them need to understand the TGM concept of the 'Flying Wedges' and how to stay on plane by tracing the 'Swing Plane Line ' especially from P5 but definitely by the time one reaches release. This is what Dr Mann's website says about how to shallow the club (and its not just using the squat). www.perfectgolfswingreview.net/2014Revision.htmTopic number 7: What causes the clubshaft to shallow-out during the early downswing, and how much should the clubshaft shallow-out during the early downswing?"It is that differential degree of movement of the right elbow (relative to the left elbow) that causes the clubshaft to shallow-out in his early downswing" .
I'm not convinced about keeping that pelvic/torso differential to prevent an OTT because the shoulders can move independently on different planes independent of the ribcage and pelvis. In that 1st video , Milo mentions using the ground to create rotation and then use it to 'pour on the speed' from P5.5 . Yet Erik Barzeski claims there is very little effect from ground force reactions. The GRF's are basically a reaction to movements initiated within the body.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 5, 2020 22:13:58 GMT -5
I might be wrong about that early palmar flexion of left wrist and extension of right wrist (and the breaking of the intact LFFW and tracing the SPL). I found another previous post and this is what Dr Mann said
"I don't think that your reasoning makes sense.
First of all, you are overly focused on the "idea" that the clubshaft must be perfectly on-plane. The TGM concept of being on-plane is only a guideline and it is difficult to be perfectly on-plane. So, it is readily possible that one could be a few inches off-plane (where the laser light at the end of the club that is nearest the ground points slightly inside-or-outside the ball-target line) during the early downswing, and that would be acceptable. Secondly, moving the left wrist into palmar flexion (bowing) or extension (cupping) at P5 probably only moves the laser light off-plane by an insignificant amount - presuming that the left wrist is first neutral at P5. If the left wrist bowing/cupping first starts at P4, then it is even possible to move the left arm downplane in such a manner that the clubshaft could still be on-plane between P4 and P5.5 if the degree of bowing/cupping does not change during that time period. However, the major problem will start as one bypasses P6 and the back of the left hand starts to face more towards the target. If the left wrist is bowed, it would be perfectly acceptable because bowing only causes angulation of the clubshaft backwards away from the target and the golfer can easily adjust to this scenario by adding a little more left forearm supination to ensure that there is less forward shaft lean at impact. By contrast, if the left wrist is cupped between P6 and impact, then the golfer would have the clubhead ahead of the hands in a pre-flipped condition during that time period and that is totally unacceptable.
From my perspective, it is only acceptable to perform the downswing with a neutral left wrist (GFLW) or a bowed left wrist. Bowing the left wrist does cause the clubshaft to approach impact between P6 and P7 from a slightly underplane alignment, but that is not really a problem."
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 10:09:10 GMT -5
Hi UG
I've seen some more videos of Milo and Eric on how to start the downswing with the lower and upper body but I think its all rather vague because they don't provide any logical biomechanical reasoning to support their concepts.
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 11:56:30 GMT -5
Hi DG,
I still need to watch Milo’s and Eric’s material, but Milo’s basic idea is to make sure the shoulders do not lead the hips, to make sure the arms do not lead the shoulders, to make sure the club head never tips across the line, and to make sure the hand arc path is downward enough to miss the plane shaft blockade. All of this is sound reasoning to me. I think any left wrist palmar flexion is of minor importance and only a means to miss the plane shaft blockade when necessary.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 12:40:35 GMT -5
Hi UG
The strange thing is that in the introduction to his videos he conducts a right handed only swing and it looks great (wish I could do that) :-)
By P5.5 is upper body and pelvis both look slightly open to me and he didn't seem to have any trouble avoiding an OTT or perform much of a squatting action.
DG
PS. What's a plane shaft blockade?
Now I know after seeing that 3rd video up to the end .
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 13:05:24 GMT -5
DG, on Milo's third video at 1:15, he calls it his plane stick and it serves as an OTT blockade. Yes, Milo has one of the best swings around, definitely one to emulate!
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 13:34:47 GMT -5
I think that Milo, and especially Eric, are making many errors in their biomechanical reasoning. In this first critical post, I will again discuss the issue of why the clubhead moves away from the target during the early downswing. Watch this Eric Cogorno video. Between the 11:00 - 13:45 minutes time point of the video, Eric provides two explanations as to why the clubhead moves away from the target as one starts the downswing. He states that the left wrist must uncock (ulnar deviate), but he simultaneously attempts to imply that left wrist uncocking does not represent casting because of a left wrist hinging motion happening simultaneously in the opposite plane where the left wrist becomes more flexed. However, that explanation is pure BS, because casting is measured in the plane of radial => ulnar deviation and it is not significantly affected by small changes in the degree of left wrist flexion/extension. His second explanation is an increase in the degree of right angle bend from 90 degrees at P4 to 110-120 degrees. That's also pure BS! Here is a birds-eye view video of Rory McIlroy's driver swing. Here are capture images of his P4 => P6 time period. Note that his clubhead reaches it furthest distance away from the target at P5.5 (image 4) and not P6 (image 5) as Eric claims. What is causing the clubhead to move away from the target between P4 (image 1) and P5 (image 3)? Here are close-up images of the P4 => P5 time period. I have placed a yellow circle over his left shoulder socket, a blue circle over his right shoulder socket and I have drawn a red line between his right shoulder socket and the club handle just in front of his right hand's placement on the grip.
Note that the clubhead moves away from the target between P4 and P5 even though the left shoulder socket is moving targetwards during that time period. The reason = change in angle of the left arm from being angled at 11:30 o'clock at P4 to being angled at 9 o'clock at P5 - and it has nothing to with any change in the degree of lag. Note that the degree of his left wrist radial deviation does not significantly change between image 1 and image 3, and note that he does not cast between P4 and P5.
Eric states that the right elbow must straighten to cause the clubhead to move away from the target. However, note that the right shoulder socket is moving away from the target between P4 and P5 due to scapula protraction combined with a counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso, but the length of the distance between the right hand and the right shoulder socket (length of the red line) is actually shortening between P4 and P5. How could that happen if the right arm is straightening between P4 and P5? What is causing the distance between the right hand and the right shoulder socket to decrease between P4 (image 1) and P5 (image 3)? I believe that it is due to right arm adduction while maintaining roughly the same degree of right elbow angle bend. "Fact" - note how much the right shoulder socket is further away from the target than the left shoulder socket at P5 - compared to their relative distances away from the target at P4 (where the right shoulder socket is actually closer to the target than the left shoulder socket). The distance between the right shoulder socket and the right hand must decrease (not increase) between P4 and P5 to accomodate to that "fact".
Jeff.
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 14:44:56 GMT -5
Jeff and DG, I stopped watching Eric's channel when he was unwilling to accept the basic idea of the drive hold release. I think seeing the flaws in anyone's biomechaninical reasoning is beneficial. However, I appreciate seeing both the good and the bad. I believe Milo has provided three videos that provide good instruction for a player working to overcome an OTT issue. I would guess that at least 95% of what Milo says is sound instruction in these three videos. I would appreciate it if you would highlight the good he has presented in your own words so I know what you agree with, and also mention what might be better said. Of course, when Eric says mostly unsound advice, the response will mostly be negative. But, it would still help to also mention anything good that Eric says, instead of only the negative.
To maximize learning, the good needs to reinforced and the bad needs to be discarded. Only correcting what is wrong is better than nothing, but could you also reinforce what is correct so this truth can also be reinforced at the same time.
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 15:11:02 GMT -5
Here is the swing video featuring both Milo and Eric. Note that they both state that "across the board" that all pro golfers (irrespective of left wrist grip strength) are moving their lead wrist towards flexion during the early downswing between P4 and p5.5. That's BS! Although some pro golfers increasingly flex their lead wrist as they start the downswing, here is the result of Phil Cheetham's 3-D study on 92 pro golfers. Note that the left wrist is extended at P4 and that it becomes slightly more extended during the early downswing, and that it only starts to overtly flex after ~P5.5.
Who is the superb golfer who manifests a lot of left wrist extension at P5.5? The obvious answer is Ben Hogan. Here is an animated gif of Ben Hogan. Note how cupped Hogan's left wrist is at P5 and note how he bows his left wrist between P5.5 and P6.2 by using the combined "early left forearm supination + left wrist palmar flexion" maneuver. I believe that it is optional as to whether one increasingly flexes the left wrist between P4 and P5.5 (as seen in Jon Rahm's downswing) or whether one uses the intact LAFW technique (like Henrik Stenson and Justin Rose) or whether one converts from having a cupped left wrist in the early downswing to acquiring a bowed left wrist in the later mid-downswing (like Ben Hogan). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 16:11:33 GMT -5
UG, You wrote-: " I believe Milo has provided three videos that provide good instruction for a player working to overcome an OTT issue. I would guess that at least 95% of what Milo says is sound instruction in these three videos. I would appreciate it if you would highlight the good he has presented in your own words so I know what you agree with, and also mention what might be better said." I actually dislike those Milo videos and I think that the 2nd one is particularly bad. Starting with this 1st video. I agree that starting the kinematic sequence with an upper torso rotation will predispose to an OTT move, and I agree that one should start the pivot motion with a pelvic rotation where one maintains the upper torso back (due to an ability to generate dynamic torso-pelvic separation). However, I disagree with Milo who implies that the clubshaft will automatically shallow-out and come from the inside if one simply performs the "squat move" (hip squaring action). If you look at the video between the 2:56 - 3:11 minute time period, then you will see that he is actually performing an independent arm action involving right arm adduction while he is simultaneously squatting - and I believe that simply starting the downswing with a "squat move" will not necessarily shallow the clubshaft automatically. Here is his 2nd video. Between the 2:08 - 2:15 minute time point of the video he demonstrates the difference between what he calls the "impact position" and the end-backswing position, and he then states that the difference is due to the clubhead moving away from the target. That's a BS explanation! All he is demonstrating is a difference in the degree of lag between two artificially posed positions and that difference in the degree of clubhead lag does not cause the clubhead to move away from the target during the early downswing! Between the 2:55 - 3:10 minute time point of his video, he states that even if the golfer shallows the clubshaft well during the early downswing that the "animal instinct" takes over and causes a clubshaft-tipping motion because they want to get the clubhead to get to the ball. I don't believe that the clubshaft tipping motion is due an over-eagerness to release PA#2, and I think that it is due to supinating the left forearm prematurely (in a "Malaska Move" manner) prior to the release of PA#2. He should be discussing the problem of rotating the left forearm prematurely and not focus on a golfer's propensity to want to release PA#2 too soon. Here is his 3rd video. Between the 2:55 - 3:53 minute time point, he gives advice on how to prevent an OTT action where the clubshaft tips over-the-plane. He states that remedy is the "squat move", which he believes shallows the clubshaft. However, I believe that the clubshaft shallowing action that he is demonstrating is actually due an independent arm action involving right arm adduction. He then wrongheadedly states that the right wrist must increasingly flex at the same time to allow the clubshaft to shallow. That's surely wrong! The right wrist does not have to change its degree of extension to prevent a clubshaft-tipping swing fault, and what really must happen is that the right forearm must supinate more.
Jeff.
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 17:42:57 GMT -5
Jeff, a nice critique. I believe you have made some valid points. I will try to learn from them.
However, aside from those valid concerns, in video 1, Milo accurately states that the shoulders turning first can instantly move the arms over the top and cause an OTT hand arc path problem. True, it is not an automatic cure, but if a golfer makes sure the shoulders don't turn early, ahead of the hips, it is essentially important. Milo could have said this is "step 1", but it is still valuable information.
In video 2, I believe it is an important concept to teach that the club head should never prematurely tip over the plane line. Of course, the club head should initially move away from the target and then gradually move toward the ball, from an inside path, which Milo could have explained better, but I think he makes it very clear that the club head should never prematurely move closer to the target line, for any reason, during the majority of the downswing. And, I agree with Milo that many players have a major problem with this, along with the error explained in video 1.
I am lost where you say Milo is talking about releasing PA#2, in video 2. I only hear him talking about the swing path and that tipping the club head (swing path) prematurely is to be avoided. He does not mention left arm supination, but I would assume that is what he meant. He says the player often wants to get the club head to the ball prematurely, but he says nothing about the wrists uncocking early to accomplish this. To me, he is clearly showing the "tumble move" which is caused by left arm supination, not a release of PA#2. In his video example, he does show the club head moving all the way to the ball (with an eventual release of PA#2), but this is just a demonstration showing the entire downswing. He is not suggesting that the problem is due to early wrist unhinging, although with some beginners this can also be an issue.
In video 3, he provides an excellent hitting station for golfers to use to work on fixing an OTT issue. He then provides an example of how to "drill" this to keep from hitting the plane stick blockade. The squat move is a good thing for many golfers, and it does help along with independent right arm adduction. Of course, the squat move is worthless if the player is already OTT, but with a player on-plane, it certainly doesn't hurt and probably improves the hand path arc. Milo doesn't mention independent right arm motion, from p4 to p5.5, which would make his presentation better. However, he does not say the right wrist "must" increasingly flex in video 3, he only suggests that as a possible strategy to keep the shaft away from the blockade. And, right wrist flexion can help shallow the shaft, although it is certainly not mandatory.
I think your valid comments could only help Milo's presentation, but I believe his overall message is still very good.
Finally, Milo's golf swing is superb and he is simply trying to teach others how he swings. As I watch Milo's swing, I see his teaching reinforcing everything he actually does during his swing. And, I definitely wish I could swing like Milo.
UG
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 21:15:21 GMT -5
Here is a fun video of Bryson demonstrating right scapula retraction from p3.5 to p4, and then right scapular protraction after p4. It looks like his scapular protraction is somewhat aggressive, as well.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 21:32:57 GMT -5
UG,
You wrote-: "However, he does not say the right wrist "must" increasingly flex in video 3, he only suggests that as a possible strategy to keep the shaft away from the blockade. And, right wrist flexion can help shallow the shaft, although it is certainly not mandatory."
How does right wrist flexion shallow the clubshaft?
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 6, 2020 21:39:54 GMT -5
I've been having some fun with this free double pendulum application below imagining that the central hub was the right shoulder joint, the proximal joint was the elbow and the peripheral joint the wrist/hand (keeping the arm lengths approximately the same and just adjusting the masses). Then I just positioned the proximal arm horizontal and the peripheral arm vertical as if the P4 position of a golfers right arm position (90 degree arm bend). Then just ran it at very slow time rate. www.myphysicslab.com/pendulum/double-pendulum-en.htmlAmazing how you can see the almost linear vertical path of the 'hand' as the proximal arm 'adducted' . Yes there is some extra 'right arm bend' but not much required to generate an almost linear 'hand' path . Obviously you will have to imagine a left arm and shoulder joint attached and how the movement of each shoulder socket might move in a real golf swing but it does help me visualise how a right arm adduction move can help create a less curved hand path in the downswing. DG
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