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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 1:48:41 GMT -5
Some PGA pros move their pelvis targetward near the end of the backswing as the hips/pelvis finish turning.
Here are a few examples:
(starting at 1:20)
What might be the purpose of this micro-move?
Do any of the following reasons make sense and justify performing this micro-move?
1. This move promotes an in to out swing path as the lumbar and thoracic spine are rotated even more CW during the transition, and the body is positioned to more easily perform right lateral bend during the downswing.
2. This move increases weight pressure onto the left foot so more force can be directed through the left leg (from the toes to the heel) to quickly rotate the pelvis and spine CCW from p4 to p5.5.
3. This move pre-stretches muscles (left side internal rotator muscles, left side internal obliques) that will then contract to quickly rotate the pelvis and spine CCW (a stretch-shorten cycle).
4. This move helps to improve the kinematic sequence and proper timing and synchronization of pelvic rotation, thorax rotation, and left arm motion.
Any input is appreciated.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 9:10:12 GMT -5
Hi UG - I'll have a go again (but Dr Mann is the expert here on anatomy and kinematics). If the golfer is using the kinematic sequence then the pelvis is rotating first in the downswing . But they are re-rotating from a relatively stable right hip position just at/ before P4 is reached for the above golfers. Basically the pelvic right hip 'targetwards' move happens in the backswing, stays there, and then the pelvis re-rotates Not sure whether Dr Mann's 3 categories of pelvic rotation below is covered by what I've just said above. If you look at the 'Pro Golfers Pelvic Motion' why can't R1 venture behind the tush line and move more targetwards by P4? Then re-rotate around R1 so that R2 and L2 are square but both slightly behind the tush line by P5? Or alternatively , why isn't R1 staying on the tush line but more targetwards at P4 , then re-rotating so that both R2 and L2 are square on the tush line by P5? DG If you cannot understand what I am saying above, maybe this old video by Shawn Clement can help visualise it. Imho, this move is a by-product of the correct pressure loading of the right hip to then utilise the pelvic rotary muscles to square the pelvis by P5. Also, the activation of the right hip Iliopsoas muscle creates hip flexion and helps ensure right hip externally rotates (rather than internally) but also creates space for the pitch elbow move in the 1st phase of the downswing (hips squaring move by P5). DG PS . Maybe I've misinterpreted Dr Manns pelvic motion patterns above but it would be clearer to see the overlapping images of the pelvis at address, at P4 then at P5 . Then maybe draw the loci of R1 and L1 .
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 9:53:48 GMT -5
UG, You wrote-: " Some PGA pros move their pelvis targetward near the end of the backswing as the hips/pelvis finish turning." I don't think that is happening as you described it - implying that the pelvis is still rotating clockwise during the P3.5 - P4 time period as the pelvis moves leftwards. If you look at Rory's swing, I think that he is starting to rotate his pelvis counterclockwise between P3.5 - P4 while his upper torso is still rotating clockwise, and that pattern of starting the counterclockwise pelvic rotation during the very late backswing causes the pelvis to move leftwards as they re-center their pelvis in order to transition into their "squat move". There are some pro golfers who move their pelvis leftwards during the P3.5 - P5 time period because they straighten their right leg and have a large degree of clockwise rotation - like Arnold Palmer. I suspect that AP is still weight-pressure loading, and stabilising, his right leg at his P4 position, so that he can efficiently use his right-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles to help rotate his pelvis counterclockwise during the hip-squaring phase. However, he could possibly be generating most of his pelvic rotator power between P4 => P5 by pushing down into the ground under his left forefoot in a direction that is away from the ball-target line, thereby generating a left-sided horizontal GRM.
A large degree of pelvic rotation probably does stretch the left adductor magnus muscle, and potentially allow it to contract with greater efficiency during the downswing and thereby enhance the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis. AP has lot of room in front of his right hip joint area at P4 and that potentially allows him to slot his club using a pitch right elbow motion, thereby better ensuring an in-to-out clubhead path. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 10:06:57 GMT -5
DG,,
You wrote-: "If you look at the 'Pro Golfers Pelvic Motion' why can't R1 venture behind the tush line and move more targetwards by P4? Then re-rotate around R1 so that R2 and L2 are square but both slightly behind the tush line by P5?"
R1 cannot venture behind the tush line by P4 because of my definition of the "tush line", which I define as a line drawn against the back of the right buttocks at P4. However, it is certainly possible to have the right buttocks move further away from the ball-target line, and also towards the target, by P4 as seen in Shawn Clement's backswing action. However, he performs that idiosyncratic pelvic motion because he cannot generate any torso-pelvic separation, and his upper torso rotates as much as his pelvis between P1 => P4.
You also wrote-: "Or alternatively , why isn't R1 staying on the tush line but more targetwards at P4 , then re-rotating so that both R2 and L2 are square on the tush line by P5?"
That is certainly possible if one uses a leftwards-loading pelvic loading pattern (like Arnold Palmer). My diagram shows a rightwards-loading pelvic motion pattern.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 10:09:27 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 12:00:28 GMT -5
Dr Mann
I am confused about leg extension and flexion so am I correct about the following:
1. If the right foot is solidly impeded by the ground (pressure loaded) , an activation of the gluteus maximus will extend the leg. 2. If the right foot is not impeded solidly by the ground (less pressure weighted), an activation of the gluteus maximus will flex the leg. 3. For an optimal pro golfers pelvic rotation , the right hip is pressure loaded and there is isometric contraction of the right gluteus maximus.
When I look at AP's swing analysis in the below video , it looks like his right hip immediately leaves the tush line from P4. Then by P5.5 , the contraction of the gluteus maximus muscle causes right leg flexion (on an unweighted right hip/leg as per point 2 above) while activation of right iliopsoas muscle creates more hip flexion and external rotation of right femur.
Doesn't this suggest he isn't using his right pelvic rotary muscles but that the whole pelvis is mainly being turned using the below biomechanics (which I used from your website)?
" left adductor magnus is also isometrically active during this early downswing time period, it can pull the left inferior pubic ramus towards the left thigh (as it is being externally rotated), thereby contributing to the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis"
So isn't it possible that AP is using the below to rotate his pelvis from P4-P5 (and possibly P5.5) ?
1. Contraction of left pelvic rotary muscles (which normally externally rotates the left femur) with combined isometric contraction of his adductor magnus. 2. Left foot GRF horizontal forces.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 12:27:35 GMT -5
DG,
You wrote-: "I am confused about leg extension and flexion so am I correct about the following:
1. If the right foot is solidly impeded by the ground (pressure loaded) , an activation of the gluteus maximus will extend the leg. 2. If the right foot is not impeded solidly by the ground (less pressure weighted), an activation of the gluteus maximus will flex the leg. 3. For an optimal pro golfers pelvic rotation , the right hip is pressure loaded and there is isometric contraction of the right gluteus maximus."
Isotonic contraction of the right gluteus maximus muscle can potentially extend the right femur at the level of the hip joint, but it does not directly affect the knee joint so I cannot understand why you are referring to leg flexion/extension. I think that the right gluteus maximus muscle is isometrically active at P4, but it does not cause extension at the level of the right joint because the right hip joint flexors are more active allowing AP to retain his spinal bend inclination angle.
You also wrote-: "When I look at AP's swing analysis in the below video , it looks like his right hip immediately leaves the tush line from P4."
I disagree! Look at WDF's video between 5:52-5:56 minutes - and note that the right buttocks remains against the red line during the hip-squaring phase.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 12:58:00 GMT -5
Dr Mann- many thanks
For point 1 , I was looking at this video below 0:06-0:09 and I assumed that activation extended the leg.
Point 2 is definitely wrong .
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 14:18:32 GMT -5
DG and Jeff, thanks for the input.
Jeff:
You wrote-: "Some PGA pros move their pelvis targetward near the end of the backswing as the hips/pelvis finish turning."
I don't think that is happening as you described it - implying that the pelvis is still rotating clockwise during the P3.5 - P4 time period as the pelvis moves leftwards. If you look at Rory's swing, I think that he is starting to rotate his pelvis counterclockwise between P3.5 - P4 while his upper torso is still rotating clockwise, and that pattern of starting the counterclockwise pelvic rotation during the very late backswing causes the pelvis to move leftwards as they re-center their pelvis in order to transition into their "squat move".
i really don't see any CCW rotation of the pelvis as RM moves his hips more targetward early in this sequence. I only see his left butt cheek becoming more and more visible, indicating more CW pelvic rotation. I do believe he begins his CCW pelvic rotation before his arms move downwards, but that is a different topic. It is obvious that much is happening during this short time period.
If his pelvis truly rotated CW during this early targetward shift, it would be too early and would disrupt his kinematic sequence, I believe.
After this targetward pelvic shift, it is clear that his right foot is still loaded enough to use his right external rotator hip muscles, and that he is also probably using his partially loaded left foot to enhance the CW pelvic rotation.
UG
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 14:43:11 GMT -5
Here is a recent article from Golf magazine that applies:
The above video is basically what is discussed below.
This is the real cause of fat shots, according to cutting-edge golf technology
The team at athletic motion golf use their 'GEARS' technology to uncover the real cause of fat shots in golf. Study up!
You’ve just hit a wonderful drive down the middle of the fairway, and you’ve got a good look at the green. Birdie incoming? You pull your club, begin your swing… and then lay the sod over the golf ball as it trundles and comes to rest just a few yards ahead of you. The dreaded fat shot.
We all know the feeling, and we all hate it. Fat shots are one of the most common mis-hits in golf, and something we all want to rid from our games. But what causes fat shots?
For that question, we turned to two of the smartest people in golf: Sean Webb and Mike Granato, the minds behind Athletic Motion Golf. They’re one of my favorite follows on Instagram, and the authors of a forthcoming article in GOLF Magazine (stay tuned for that).
Armed with the latest GEARS 3D Technology, they helped answer the question of what causes fat shots in golf.
What Causes Fat Shots In Golf?
Watch the full video above for more detail, but put simply: When Granato and Webb analyzed pros’ golf swings, they found a very specific sequence of movements:
1. Their centers move off the ball early in the backswing 2. By the time they get to the top of the backswing, their torso and pelvis have “re-centered” back over the ball. 3. Early in the downswing, their centers have moved ahead of the ball.
Amateurs either don’t do these three things, or they do them too late, which makes it’s hard to hit the ball well consistently.
1. Their don’t reach their “max load” until late in the backswing. 2. They spend their early part of the downswing “re-centering.”
Whereas pros have already re-centered by the top of the backswing, amateurs who struggled with fat shots re-center late — sometimes not even until the start of the downswing, according to Granato — leaving themselves with a lot of work to do in a very short period of time. Inevitably, they’ll often re-center too late, which causes inconsistencies and fat shots. Some truly fascinating insight. Watch the full video above, and for more from Athletic Motion Golf (including a free video for GOLF.com readers, follow this link).
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 20:00:36 GMT -5
Hi UG
Interesting micro-move .
I looked at my book 'Swing Like A Pro' by Dr Ralph Mann and there it is on page 106.
From P3 to P4 the 'Pro Model' begins to shift the lower body toward the target during 'Transition ' (their definition for 'Transition' is from P3-P4).
If I've interpreted and summarised what the chapters says, it seems that this 'Transition' move (it incorporates other 'moves/feels' with this lower body shift to target):
* Helps to stretch the muscles and load the swing dynamically * Pressure shift from right to left foot (when the body moves forward towards target) provides a stable base for the unwinding of the upper body from P4. * Enables the golfer swing 'all-out' without risk of losing balance or wasting energy * Initial move forward with feet, legs and hips sets up a chain of movements in the upper body that allows the transport of the club forwards along the proper swing path. * Helps produce the proper 'fall of the club' where the clubhead actually moves away from the ball as it nears P4 to automatically move the clubhead on an inside path during the downswing. It says the 'fall of the club' is so important that , if done properly it single-handedly eliminates problems related to swing path. * Helps move the lower body out of the way of the upper body to allow the correct swing path to occur.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 22:21:06 GMT -5
Here is a recent article from Golf magazine that applies: The above video is basically what is discussed below. This is the real cause of fat shots, according to cutting-edge golf technology The team at athletic motion golf use their 'GEARS' technology to uncover the real cause of fat shots in golf. Study up!
You’ve just hit a wonderful drive down the middle of the fairway, and you’ve got a good look at the green. Birdie incoming? You pull your club, begin your swing… and then lay the sod over the golf ball as it trundles and comes to rest just a few yards ahead of you. The dreaded fat shot. We all know the feeling, and we all hate it. Fat shots are one of the most common mis-hits in golf, and something we all want to rid from our games. But what causes fat shots? For that question, we turned to two of the smartest people in golf: Sean Webb and Mike Granato, the minds behind Athletic Motion Golf. They’re one of my favorite follows on Instagram, and the authors of a forthcoming article in GOLF Magazine (stay tuned for that). Armed with the latest GEARS 3D Technology, they helped answer the question of what causes fat shots in golf. What Causes Fat Shots In Golf? Watch the full video above for more detail, but put simply: When Granato and Webb analyzed pros’ golf swings, they found a very specific sequence of movements: 1. Their centers move off the ball early in the backswing 2. By the time they get to the top of the backswing, their torso and pelvis have “re-centered” back over the ball. 3. Early in the downswing, their centers have moved ahead of the ball. Amateurs either don’t do these three things, or they do them too late, which makes it’s hard to hit the ball well consistently. 1. Their don’t reach their “max load” until late in the backswing. 2. They spend their early part of the downswing “re-centering.” Whereas pros have already re-centered by the top of the backswing, amateurs who struggled with fat shots re-center late — sometimes not even until the start of the downswing, according to Granato — leaving themselves with a lot of work to do in a very short period of time. Inevitably, they’ll often re-center too late, which causes inconsistencies and fat shots. Some truly fascinating insight. Watch the full video above, and for more from Athletic Motion Golf (including a free video for GOLF.com readers, follow this link). Complete nonsense! What the AMG instructors are teaching is a vertical-centralised or a leftwards-centralised backswing action, which is an option that is used by a subset of pro golfers (eg. S&T golfers). However, many pro golfers prefer to use use a rightwards-centralised backswing action where the upper swing center is well to the right of the lower swing center at P4. Here are 3 examples - featuring Jamie Sadlowski, Tim Burke and Cameron Champ. Here is another example of a rightwards-centralised backswing action - featuring Mickey Wright.
Image 1 is at P3.75 and image 2 is at P4. Note that her pelvis moves targetwards between between P3.75 and P4 and that her left knee is already moving targetwards - reflecting the start of her counterclockwise pelvic motion. However, note that her upper swing center is still well to the right of her lower swing center because she uses a rightwards-centralised backswing action.
Golfers, like Mickey Wright, who use a rightwards-centralised backswing action do not have problem hitting fat shots!
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 22:32:42 GMT -5
DG,
You quoted the SLAP book as follows-: "Helps to stretch the muscles and load the swing dynamically * Pressure shift from right to left foot (when the body moves forward towards target) provides a stable base for the unwinding of the upper body from P4. * Enables the golfer swing 'all-out' without risk of losing balance or wasting energy * Initial move forward with feet, legs and hips sets up a chain of movements in the upper body that allows the transport of the club forwards along the proper swing path. * Helps produce the proper 'fall of the club' where the clubhead actually moves away from the ball as it nears P4 to automatically move the clubhead on an inside path during the downswing. It says the 'fall of the club' is so important that , if done properly it single-handedly eliminates problems related to swing path. * Helps move the lower body out of the way of the upper body to allow the correct swing path to occur."
Do you really find those vague statements helpful?
Where is the "evidence" that weight-pressure is moving dramatically from the right foot to the left foot during the transition?
What does it mean to state "without wasting energy"?
How does the targetwards movement of the legs/pelvis at the transition cause the upper body to secondarily move in such a way that the club will move forward along the proper swing path?
How does a movement of the lower body targetwards at the transition cause the proper "fall of the club"?
How does a movement of the lower body targetwards at the transition cause the lower body to get out of the way of the upper body?
Jeff.
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Post by utahgolfer on Apr 9, 2020 23:46:44 GMT -5
Jeff, I beg to differ. I don't see this as nonsense. The S & T method has no rightwards motion during the first half of the backswing. It is basically a left sided swing with a tailbone tuck to get the hips through during the downswing. This is not about that.
To me, this idea is about swing center manipulation to promote an ideal swinging action. From p1 to p3.9 the swing center moves slightly rightwards, as this loads the right hip for a better CW turn. From p3.9 to p4, the swing center moves slightly leftwards back the p1 position or a bit further left as some pros do (Rory), for a better subsequent CCW turn. From p4 to p5.5, the swing center is fairly constant, I believe. From p5.5 to p7, the swing center moves more rightwards for a driver and less rightwards for a wedge.
Here is a slow motion video of Jamie and you can clearly see this same swing center manipulation during his swing. This seems very simple to me.
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Apr 10, 2020 0:20:06 GMT -5
UG, You wrote-: " i really don't see any CCW rotation of the pelvis as RM moves his hips more targetward early in this sequence. I only see his left butt cheek becoming more and more visible, indicating more CW pelvic rotation." We see "reality" differently. Here are capture images from the Rory McIlroy video.
Image 1 is at P3.75, image 2 is at P4 and image 3 is at P4.1.
I have drawn red lines alongside the outer border of his upper thighs at P3.75.
The pelvis has shifted left between P3.75 and P4, and he is already starting his "squat move" and I can see no evidence that his pelvis is still rotating clockwise. I believe that the "squat move" makes it appear that the pelvis is rotated more clockwise, but I believe that it is simply a natural manifestation of what happens when you start to squat and increase your degree of hip joint flexion.
Jeff.
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