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Post by utahgolfer on May 21, 2020 1:05:18 GMT -5
Dr. Mann has emphasized that swing power should be generated early in the downswing, since we know left arm speed begins to slow down before impact, and club head speed reaches its peak speed at impact. Clearly, there is a window of opportunity to create power in the swing, and it needs to happen early and quickly in the downswing. The standard kinematic sequence graph shows maximum left arm speed occurs at about p5.5. Dr. Mann has also discussed how Jon Rahm moves his left arm at a faster speed than his pelvis and thorax, sooner than normal in the downswing (compared to other PGA players). link Dr. Mann has proposed that Jon Rahm may generate most of his left hand speed at p5.5 due to right and left shoulder girdle muscle activation, and not because of the speed of his upper torso rotation. In this video from AMG, Mike Granato, indicates that the sooner a golfer reaches maximum left hand speed, the higher will be his club head speed at impact. This reinforces the idea that early left arm speed is essential to maximize club head speed. This video shows the amateur model reaching peak left arm speed later, just after p6, while the pro model reaches peak left arm speed sooner, at p5.5. Here is a video of Paul Wilson, a teaching pro in the Las Vegas area, known for his swing power. In this video, Paul suggests that his swing power is a result of very relaxed arms and a fast turning pelvis and thorax. Beginning at the 5:20 mark, he shows an "easy" swing generating 96 mph club head speed, and then his "hardest" swing (but still very smooth) generating a club head speed of 114 mph. But, pause, start and stop, the video during Paul's downswing and you will notice a relatively straight hand arc path (similar to Jon Rahm) from p4 to p5.5. Paul's pelvis and thorax are moving relatively fast during this time, but he appears to move his left arm faster than what his pelvis and thorax rotation would generate. His very fast vertical left arm drop looks similar to Jon Rahm's. Paul states that the arms just need to be as relaxed as possible. And that power is a function of his fast body rotation. In other videos, Paul sometimes seems exasperated that golfers can't seem to get it. He repeatedly says over and over to keep the arms relaxed and turn the body fast. I don't know if Paul has any right and left scapula girdle muscle activation, especially when his arm swing looks so relaxed and effortless. My assumption is that Paul's high club head speed is related to his relatively straight hand arc path from p4 to p5.5, which promotes an efficient and quick release of PA#4. Any input is appreciated. UG
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Post by syllogist on May 21, 2020 7:08:39 GMT -5
Hi UG,
It appeared that Granato trapped himself in his own reasoning. Granato explained that in order to generate more clubhead speed, hand speed must peak sooner. However, when the am worked on the swing change supposedly involving making his hands reach peak speed sooner, he actually generated one mph less peak hand speed and achieved greater clubhead speed. We did see that what he did achieve was to have a more acute arm/shaft angle leading into final release. The professional woman also had slower peak hand speed and achieved that more acute angle. So, how much does it matter when peak hand speed occurs within a 0.01 sec. window of opportunity? Does reaching peak hand speed sooner necessarily result in the more acute release angle, which appears to be highly correlated with clubhead speed? Also, when is the optimal time in the downswing to reach peak hand speed?
There was nothing particularly wrong with what Mr. Wilson was recommending. Intentionally applying a negative (or hold back) torque to the left arm and wrists for any "lengthy" period of time would inhibit arm and wrist speed, and rotational speed is by far the major factor in generating clubhead speed.
S
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 21, 2020 9:12:25 GMT -5
Hi UG
looking from this birds eye view of his swing , I think you are correct that he has created a less curved arc from P4-P5.5 to optimise his release (when his hands turn the corner).
One thing I noticed was his bent left arm at P4 and the fact that it straightens gradually as his left shoulder socket moves targetwards (won't that cause a less curved hand path from P4-P5.5?).
He seems to be using a right arm adduction and pitch elbow move but limited shoulder downplane and lateral flexion and maybe a borderline DH'er (not sure but look at 0:57 frame) where his arm and shaft look aligned (intact LAFW) at least a few inches post impact.
DG
PS. I'd be tempted to say that he was using his left arm tricep to increase his hand speed but he does stress that his swing is very loose and without tension so that is probably not happening.
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Post by utahgolfer on May 22, 2020 23:24:02 GMT -5
S and DG, thank you for your input.
It is true that rotational body speed is vital to club head swing power; however, a fast body rotation is all for naught when the arms take the wrong path or exhibit poor timing.
Plus, the birds-eye view of PW's swing is exquisite! I'm not a big fan of drones, but that one was put to a good use!
Here is another video from PW, that propagates my confusion with the body and arm connection.
Paul teaches in this video that power comes from the body, and not the arms. He illustrates how the left arm simply follows the rotation of the body. He shows how the left arm doesn't do anything on its own. He says to not take a tense and fast arm swing that leads to pain and poor results, but to instead take an effortless body rotation swing that leads to good ball striking results, and a pain-free body.
However, PW appears oblivious of any vertical drop of the left arm. He explicitly shows how the left arm is "glued" to the shoulder turn, and moves only because the shoulders rotate.
In looking at his swing, PW definitely has a nice vertical drop of the left arm. His hand arc path is relatively straight to p5.5. This would be impossible if his left arm were truly "glued" to his shoulder turn.
Yes, the left arm needs to be relaxed and pivot driven, and there needs to be a fast body rotation, but the left arm must have some pure abduction from p4 to p5.5 to vertically drop the hand arc path. This means PA#4 must release away from the chest (PP#4) immediately at the onset of the downswing.
This looks to be exactly what PW does on his actual swing, even though he doesn't seem to be aware of it.
So, there really does need to be an independent and relaxed left arm swing, WHILE at the same time the pivots pulls the left arm from p4 to p5.5. Combined this makes for a complicated biomechanical motion since the left arm needs to move on its own to vertically drop, but also must be pulled by the body pivot. PW makes it look easy, but he does it naturally without thought, as he appears to not understand what he is actually doing.
Also, PW doesn't seem to understand that PA#4 is the master power accumulator, as he indicates the wrist release (PA#2) is all that seems to matter. This is problematic as it looks like he is promoting a flip release, and not a left arm dominant drive-hold release.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 23, 2020 7:32:17 GMT -5
Hi UG
Good post. PW seems to be swinging differently to his instruction (just like Tyler Ferrell and Mike Malaska).
DG
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Post by syllogist on May 23, 2020 8:51:12 GMT -5
Hi UG,
Let's assume that the "vertical drop" is indicative of the right shoulder moving from abduction to adduction. Does Paul need to be aware that such is happening in his swing? I believe that such movement is going to happen unless the golfer believes that it's a good idea to keep the right shoulder raised throughout the downswing and intentionally keeps it there. Also, so long as the golfer does not keep the left arm in an adducted state via muscle contraction, it is going to begin to rotate faster than the torso. For purposes of keeping things simple and of providing a fine starting point for downswing action, I think that Paul's recommendations had merit.
S
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 23, 2020 10:20:18 GMT -5
I disagree with Paul's teaching philosophy regarding the motion of the left arm. He claims that he gets most of his swing power from the release of PA#2, but in reality most of its comes from the release of PA#4 (which is also causally responsible for inducing the release of PA#2 via the law of the double pendulum swing motion). Paul is seemingly unaware that he has a very efficient downward component of the release of PA#4, which is due to his active right arm adduction maneuver. If you examine his birds-eye view video using a swing anaylser program, you will see how much right arm adduction motion he has between P4 => P5.5. UG, You wrote-: " Yes, the left arm needs to be relaxed and pivot driven, and there needs to be a fast body rotation, but the left arm must have some pure abduction from p4 to p5.5 to vertically drop the hand arc path. This means PA#4 must release away from the chest (PP#4) immediately at the onset of the downswing." The left arm does not change its adduction angle relative to the chest wall between P4 and P5. The adduction => abduction phase of the release of PA#4 happens after P5.
Look at these birds-eye view capture images of Rory McIlroy's downswing.
Note that there is no left arm abduction happening between P4 (image 1) and P5 (image 3).
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 23, 2020 10:28:23 GMT -5
Hi UG, Let's assume that the "vertical drop" is indicative of the right shoulder moving from abduction to adduction. Does Paul need to be aware that such is happening in his swing? I believe that such movement is going to happen unless the golfer believes that it's a good idea to keep the right shoulder raised throughout the downswing and intentionally keeps it there. Also, so long as the golfer does not keep the left arm in an adducted state via muscle contraction, it is going to begin to rotate faster than the torso. For purposes of keeping things simple and of providing a fine starting point for downswing action, I think that Paul's recommendations had merit. S Hi S Don't you mean the right upper arm being adducted , not the right shoulder? The trouble with many golf instructors is that they try and market their ideas as if there is a simple biomechanical fix that can transform a swing but sometimes it can cause more damage than good. If I was a beginner again, I wish someone had defined what 'Release' was and also demonstrated/proved to me how the 'Law Of The Flail' would help me implement/feel that release. DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 23, 2020 10:55:57 GMT -5
Hi UG Referring to Dr Mann's previous post , I also had problems understanding why there isn't any left arm abduction if the pivot is releasing PA#4. look at the Ben Allen thread below and all the images that seem to show the shoulder joints moving in almost a vertical plane. newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/677/ben-allen-jnr-papers?page=2Here is Dr Mann's reply to my question below: ------------------------------------- "DG,
You wrote-: "What I don't understand are these photo clips which seem to suggest (from a DTL view) that there is no rotation of the shoulder joints around a vertical axis.
Is it because the actual movement of the shoulder sockets from P4-P5 is too small to visualise on these photo images? Or is it because these golfers are not using a pivot induced release of PA#4?
PS. Actually ,has PA#4 even started releasing in any of these golfers by P5?"I think that it is difficult to assess the amount of left shoulder socket motion happening between P4 and P5 from a DTL viewing perspective. From a face-on viewing perspective, it is obvious that there is a lot of targetwards motion of the left shoulder socket happening between P4 and P5. The release of PA#4 (in the plane of left arm abduction) only happens after P5 and most of it happens between P5 and P6. However, PA#4 is releasing in the plane of left arm depression between P4 and P5 if the golfer has a very active right arm adduction maneuver that causes the hands to drop significantly between P4 and P5 (eg. as seen in Jamie Sadlowski's swing). ----------------------- DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 23, 2020 11:24:52 GMT -5
Interestingly enough , looking at this video below, early abduction of the left arm can cause an OTT but too much adduction (either during transition or in downswing) might increase the likelihood of a torn rotator cuff (according to John Dunigan).
If we had more research data on PGA Tour pros showing the 3D graphs of ribcage vs shoulder girdle , maybe we could identify which golfers are using the pivot to release PA#4 and others who might be using their shoulder girdle.
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on May 23, 2020 13:10:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the discussion. This is golf swing forum heaven!
Jeff you said earlier as referenced by DG:
I think that it is difficult to assess the amount of left shoulder socket motion happening between P4 and P5 from a DTL viewing perspective. From a face-on viewing perspective, it is obvious that there is a lot of targetwards motion of the left shoulder socket happening between P4 and P5. The release of PA#4 (in the plane of left arm abduction) only happens after P5 and most of it happens between P5 and P6. However, PA#4 is releasing in the plane of left arm depression between P4 and P5 if the golfer has a very active right arm adduction maneuver that causes the hands to drop significantly between P4 and P5 (eg. as seen in Jamie Sadlowski's swing).
It is easy to see there is left shoulder socket motion, however, I still have confusion over the terms describing left shoulder joint motion. I realize the right arm is actively adducting from p4 to p5, but you say the PA#4 is releasing as well.
Are you you saying that the left arm does not slide down the chest from p4 to p5?
What at do you mean by left arm depression?
Are you saying that all vertical drop is due to right arm adduction?
Does anyone else agree it is a complicated to vertically drop the hand arc path while at the same time speed up the left arm with the body pivot from p4 to p5.5? Does anyone agree it is relatively easy to do one or the other, but much harder to do both simultaneously?
Has anyone ever heard a golf instructor teach this concept or how to do it? (I still need to read the Ben Allen material, does he teach it?) Jeff, I know you teach the concept...how might you teach a beginning golfer to do it?
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 23, 2020 15:53:40 GMT -5
Are you you saying that the left arm does not slide down the chest from p4 to p5?
No. It does slide down the chest as the left arm lowers (depresses) between P4 => P5. What at do you mean by left arm depression?= left arm lowering Are you saying that all vertical drop is due to right arm adduction?
Yes (if you define vertical drop as the lowering of the right elbow).
It is easy to see there is left shoulder socket motion, however, I still have confusion over the terms describing left shoulder joint motion. I realize the right arm is actively adducting from p4 to p5, but you say the PA#4 is releasing as well.
I think that left shoulder socket motion is best described as mainly being due to upper torso rotation and its directional movement is mainly targetwards in the early downswing. PA#4 is releasing between P4 => P5 in my modified definition of a PA#4 release action.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 23, 2020 17:40:59 GMT -5
Hi UG/Dr Mann I emailed Phil Cheetham and he hasn't got the 3D data at his fingertips (as he's not involved with MySwing anymore) but this is his reply: "I do suspect though, that if you were to measure the shoulders separately to the ribcage you would see them fall into the kinematic sequence. On transition I think you would see, pelvis, ribcage, shoulders, arm, club in that order." I still find it difficult to visualise how the rotation of the ribcage and shoulder sockets can be in such a vertical plane from P4-P5 but it must be happening (and that's why there is no left arm abduction). But have a look at that video I posted regarding 'LIVE- Debunking Swing Theories- Nick Clearwater VP Golftec' and fast forward to 38:53 . You will see 3 images of pro golfers at P4 (Ricky Fowler , Rory , DJ - from left to right) with Nick Clearwater describing their thoracic tilt toward the ground (36.69 degrees, 31.10, 40.42). I don't know how 3D Gears measure those angles , whether its relative to the horizontal or referenced to another part of the anatomy , but those angles look quite steep and explains why the ribcage and shoulder sockets might be moving on such a steep plane. With regard Ben Allen Jnr , here is the link to all his free articles: independent.academia.edu/BenAllenJrYou will need to read some of his earlier articles to make sense of the golfer positions (he doesn't use the P system) and some of his own golfing terminology (different to TGM). He regards the lateral flexion as bad for the spine and blames this 'move' on modern swing mechanics (and on steel shafts that replaced hickory). He claims that Vardon had a more back friendly swing and has attempted to re-engineer his own swing concepts (but unfortunately on possible flawed physics). DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 23, 2020 19:00:58 GMT -5
Here is a 3D Gears image of a Tour Pro. You can see on the bottom right hand side the lead shoulder adduction angle (which I've checked the metrics as being the angle between the left upper arm to the shoulder line). At P4 the lead shoulder adduction is around 64 degrees and at P5 its 68 degrees , so there is a very small insignificant increase in abduction. DG
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Post by syllogist on May 24, 2020 6:32:35 GMT -5
Hi DG,
With regard to the right shoulder, I used the same term as Dr. Allen to describe its motion. "Vertical" movement of the right arm at the top of the swing should be the same directional movement as the right shoulder.
Hi UG,
You asked:
"Does anyone else agree it is a complicated to vertically drop the hand arc path while at the same time speed up the left arm with the body pivot from p4 to p5.5? Does anyone agree it is relatively easy to do one or the other, but much harder to do both simultaneously?"
I personally do not as I believe that the two actions are integrally related. In addition, there should be a muscular relaxation in those areas of the right side. Perhaps if the downswing is thought of as a pivot which allows for the the left arm to "gain a whirling speed" in order to "release," and the right side is given no thought, then the two actions will occur as one without the need to make two things happen at once. It's as if one injures one's leg and feels pain and then injures one's arm and feels greater pain than in the leg. The brain will focus on the sensory feeling of pain in the arm as the dominant feeling.
S
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