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Post by utahgolfer on Jul 28, 2020 21:53:57 GMT -5
Hi DG, I guess I'm confused on MOI and how that applies. I thought it was good to have a high MOI. Can you clarify this for me?
Also, I think the attached instructional video is Milo's best work. I believe the first six minutes explains the essence of the transition. From this, I agree with Milo that the first move of the transition is the final rotation of the right hip during the backswing, and this leads to the sit down move and left hip ER, and this sets the golfer in this squared body/arms back ready position, and this is when the golfer can and should rotate the pelvis at a maximal speed.
Milo also provides instruction on the arm swing that sounds a lot like the hand couple mechanics as highlighted by Dr. Mann in this forum. I don't think Milo's right arm straightens much in his actual swing, but he probably applies a hand couple early in the downswing, which feels to him like his right elbow is extending and pitching slightly.
So, the title of this thread could be changed to: First transition move? The final clockwise rotation of the trail hip during the late backswing.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 10:40:57 GMT -5
Hi UG For an ice -skater rotating around a central axis with their knees far apart , who then suddenly brings the knees together will reduce their MOI causing their angular rotation to increase. I don't think a 'catch the pig' type motion would have much affect on the pelvic rotation considering all the other internal forces in play (ie. the muscles being used as mentioned in Dr Manns article below). perfectgolfswingreview.net/pelvicrotation.htmlIt looks like Milo is describing the 'Hogan Power Move' but recommending the hip squaring starts happening before he reaches the top of the backswing. In transition, why would he want to early extend his right arm and 'widen his arm'? That motion would actually increase the MOI of the arm/club unit and make it more difficult to increase the angular velocity of the clubhead. Wouldn't it be easier to increase clubhead speed using a right arm adduction/pitch elbow move (while also using your upper body pivot) when the arms and clubhead are closer to the upper body pivot axis (ie. less MOI)? Also, isn't it easier to maximise a linear force more tangential to the hub path using a right arm adduction/pitch elbow move? According to Sasho Mackenzie its the linear force along the hub path and the 'work it does' that provides most of the kinetic energy of the clubhead speed into impact. I would have thought it would be essential to maximise the clubhead speed in the early downswing before 'release' so I'm not convinced that the early extension of the trail arm with any significant force 'components' across the clubshaft, rather than in the direction of the hub path, would assist that objective. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 16:26:43 GMT -5
UG,
You wrote-: "Also, I think the attached instructional video is Milo's best work. I believe the first six minutes explains the essence of the transition. From this, I agree with Milo that the first move of the transition is the final rotation of the right hip during the backswing, and this leads to the sit down move and left hip ER, and this sets the golfer in this squared body/arms back ready position, and this is when the golfer can and should rotate the pelvis at a maximal speed."
I disagree with Milo's teaching and I don't like anything that he teaches in that video. I also think that the rotary pelvic motion should not be delayed and only happen after a golfer achieves the Sam Snead "sit-down" move.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 17:40:06 GMT -5
Dr Mann You mentioned on your website 3 pelvic rotary patterns as per image below but is there a 'Hogan Power Move' pelvic rotary pattern (see further image below) and did Ben Hogan perform that similar type of move in the hip squaring phase? As you can see , there is a net pelvic shift targetwards caused just by rotation and re-rotation around a stabilised right hip at P4. DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 18:10:15 GMT -5
Just managed to compare some Hogan swing images and it looks like he does keep his right hip stabilised at P4 . Here are images at P1 and P5 DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 18:11:20 GMT -5
Dr Mann You mentioned on your website 3 pelvic rotary patterns as per image below but is there a 'Hogan Power Move' pelvic rotary pattern (see further image below) and did Ben Hogan perform that similar type of move in the hip squaring phase? As you can see , there is a net pelvic shift targetwards caused just by rotation and re-rotation around a stabilised right hip at P4. DG I have no idea what you are drawing. There is no such entity as a tush line at address in my way of thinking. The tush line is only drawn at P4 - along the back of the right buttocks. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 18:29:27 GMT -5
Dr Mann
In your pelvic rotary pattern for 'Door Hinge Opening Pelvic Motion' where would the Right and Left Hip be at P1?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 29, 2020 22:29:47 GMT -5
Dr Mann In your pelvic rotary pattern for 'Door Hinge Opening Pelvic Motion' where would the Right and Left Hip be at P1? DG In all 3 pelvic motions patterns, the two hip joints would be parallel to the ball-target line at P1 and their two buttocks would not be touching the tush line. In all 3 patterns, they would look the same at P4 - as shown by the R1 and L1 positions in my diagram. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 30, 2020 8:28:04 GMT -5
Dr Mann Many thanks - I've redrawn my image below. Can I assume that the below image is also representative of the 'Door Hinge Opening Pelvic Motion'? 1. That from P1 there is no shift of the pelvis to the right before the pelvic rotation happens 2. That there is pure rotation of the pelvis as shown from P1 -P4 3. That at P4 there is only re-rotation around the right hip. 4. That this motion pattern causes a net shift of the pelvis targetwards by P5 Isn't this hip motion pattern equivalent to the 'Hogan Power Move' and similar to what Milo implied in his video? But your website says the following (note the underlined part). Does that mean you have assumed a small shift of the pelvis to the right away from the target during the backswing as the pelvis rotates ? "Now, consider the first pelvic motional pattern - the door hinge opening type of pelvic motional pattern. In this type of pelvic motional pattern, note that the right hip joint remains in roughly the same location during the early downswing between P4 and P5, while the left hip joint gets pulled back towards the tush line to such a large degree that the back of the left buttock gets pulled back beyond the tush line by the end of the hip-squaring phase. In this particular type of "left hip clearing action" pattern, there is no lateral shift of the pelvis towards the target and the left hip joint simply gets pulled back towards the tush line during the "left hip clearing action" (like a door opening). The right hip joint can be considered to be equivalent to a "fixed" door hinge, which doesn't move its position while the door is opening. That's why I have arbitrarily labelled this type of pelvic motional pattern a "door hinge opening" type of pelvic motion."DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 30, 2020 9:45:49 GMT -5
DG,
In the door-hinge pattern of pelvic motion, where the golfer is balanced only on the right leg, there will be no/little left-lateral pelvic shift during either the backswing or downswing because the golfer would likely become unbalanced if the pelvis significantly shifts sideways.
I don't think that it is equivalent to the Hogan Power Move (as described by Shawn Clement) where a finite degree of left-lateral pelvis shift occurs - as correctly shown in your diagram.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 30, 2020 18:32:41 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Referring back to Milo's video that UG recently posted , isn't he demonstrating Brian Manzella's 'Out-Toss Manoeuvre' (4:51 - 5:51)?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 30, 2020 21:38:12 GMT -5
Dr Mann Referring back to Milo's video that UG recently posted , isn't he demonstrating Brian Manzella's 'Out-Toss Manoeuvre' (4:51 - 5:51)? DG Yes - although he is also demonstrating a simultaneous clubshaft shallowing maneuver at the same time. He states that clubshaft shallowing phenomenon happens due to the "force of the pivot", but I think that it's really an arm maneuver incorporating a right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion of the right elbow. Jeff.
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Post by utahgolfer on Jul 31, 2020 22:40:45 GMT -5
Jeff and DG,
Very nice to read your posts.
DG, I believe Milo is presenting a transition move that does not require a CCW rotatation of the pelvis as the shoulders complete their CW rotation. He is simply saying the last part of the CCW pelvic rotation is the beginning of the transition. And, to me, this is what Hogan is doing. I know that some pros do increase torso-pelvic separation with the counter rotation of the pelvis and shoulders at p4, but I don't think this is what Milo is teaching, imho. This is why I like Milo's instruction, as it is relatively easy to perform and requires much less torso-pelvic muscle coordination.
Jeff, I know we have talked about this before, but to me, Hogan has a distinct targetward motion of his pelvis as his right hip completes its CW rotation at p4. Milo also does this but his targetward motion appears to be less prominent. Then, Hogan and Milo immediately squat (belt buckle angles more downward) and the left hip externally rotates to open the pathway so the pelvis can then rotate at a maximal speed.
Here is Hogan's swing again (at 1:04). At p4, how can you claim his pelvis is not moving targetward before he begins his pelvic rotation in earnest.
I agree that Milo's explanation of straightening the trail arm in transition is not exactly accurate, but I still think it is more of a teaching cue based more on "feel" than on reality. In his actual swing, Milo does appear to guide his arms more behind him in transition, as Hogan does. The arms are not passive and do not simply respond to the motion of the pivot.
Thus, we agree that the arms are active enough during the early downswing to establish a properly pitched trail elbow with its many benefits, that an effective hand couple is at work to promote an optimum release of pa#2, and the right hand guides the swing path along the inclined plane or slightly shallowed below it.
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 1, 2020 10:23:53 GMT -5
Hi UG
I'm not sure I understand how Milo defines transition. Are you saying the forward swing happens (ie. the club changes direction to the downswing) before the pelvis reaches its backswing position?
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Aug 1, 2020 12:15:18 GMT -5
Hi DG,
I think Milo and most instructors simply refer to the transition as the part of the swing that represents somewhere around p3.5 to p5. It includes the motions of the left arm and all other key parts (pelvic rotation, shoulder turn, etc.) during this time. I like Milo's squared pelvis and arms back "goal" position. To me this represents the point when the downswing truly can and should become the most active and powerful, from a body movement stand-point, not a club head speed perspective. All body motion done to p4.5 or p5 is to prime it for this most explosive part of the swing. I agree with Milo, that a golfer shouldn't explode right "out of the blocks" and swing as explosively as possible from p4. There is an optimal sequence, and it is set up by getting to that squared body, arms back position, from which the golfer can then move as fast as possible.
I understand that not all pros do a prominent sit-down squat move, but I think all pros get to this body squared and arm back position during the downswing, and this is when they begin to demonstrate the fastest pelvis and torso rotation.
I also understand that golfers have backswings of varying lengths, so this squared pelvis and arms back position could be defined at slightly different left arm p-positions.
I don't think any pro has a prominent left arm downswing motion after p4, that clearly moves ahead of the pelvic rotation during the transition and downswing. I also don't see a lot of pros get a lot of torso-pelvic separation as the left arm is still moving upward during the backswing. Most pros attain maximal separation during the first part of the downswing, I believe. This approach is easier to time and perform, but it is obviously okay in those golfers with optimal coordination, if desired, to get their pelvis rotating CCW as the upper torso is still moving CW at the top of the backswing. But, even with these golfers, a delaying of maximal pelvic and torso rotation until the squared pelvis, arm back position would still apply.
Also, this idea that Hogan bumps his hips slightly targetward at the end of his right hip rotation, to me, is when targetward pelvic motion should occur. (This is one reason why Milo says the transition begins in the backswing, as the right hip completes its rotation.) Not all players need targetward pelvic motion, and Hogan appears to do it more in some video swings than he does in others. But, there are plenty of examples of him doing it. I doubt this is due to 2D artifact. haha. Anyways, I think performing this slight targetward pelvic motion before any prominent CCW pelvic rotation occurs is best, so the pelvis doesn't slide and rotate CCW at the same time during the transition. It seems much easier to only focus on CCW pelvic rotation during the downswing.
UG
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