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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 9, 2020 17:32:34 GMT -5
I normally post videos where I disagree with a golf instructor's teaching ideas.
However, I really like the advice given in this video.
Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Jul 10, 2020 6:55:22 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann,
I'm wondering to what degree what Nick advocated (that he alleges is not talked about), i.e., side tilt, right shoulder traveling lower than the left one, upper back bending backward during the finish, is a natural consequence of inclined torso rotation around a fairly centered axis (lateral bend at P4 moving to forward bend, moving to lateral bend).
Also, at the beginning of the video, I think he stated that the upper back must move away from the ball in order not to hit the ground first as the wrists uncock and elbows straighten. This can be analogous to saying that the golfer is "too close" to the ball as the downswing is underway and that a compensatory movement must take place. I recall that Kuykendall made a similar flawed assertion except that he provided the reason: that when straightening the right forearm to swing on the same plane as the shaft and pronate that forearm, the golfer would have to compensate by moving the left shoulder "up and back."
S
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 10, 2020 8:52:35 GMT -5
So after listening to Nick , he does explain the biomechanics of the golf swing regarding spine tilt/extension , straightening of the arms ,etc to ensure one times the bottom of the swing without hitting it fat or thin But I do not see any difference in what he is saying vs what Shawn Clement said over 11 years ago in this video below on 'How' to learn to 'feel' that technique. I've tried various techniques during the past years but this is how I swing the golf club the best and I learnt it using the feet together drill (properly). If you look at this from a physics perspective he is actually creating a ground reaction force by: 1. Moving from a 'legs slightly extended position' in the backswing 2 Then to a squat to increase ground pressure force. Point 1 and 2 is doing by 'feel' what Sasho Mackenzie suggests from his research- that one needs to weight pressure load as much as possible on the lead leg by club vertical (which has a correlation with clubhead speed). 3. Then some extension of legs and increased right lateral flexion/extension of the spine moves the lead shoulder socket up, which secondarily pulls the 'left arm/hand/club handle' up just after P6 . This action increases the MOF 'effect' across the club's COM to increase its angular velocity . The magnitude of that MOF is based on the increased pull force across the shaft (caused by the left shoulder socket moving up) and the force direction which needs to be pointed in front of the clubs COM to maximise try and optimise the 'moment arm' distance. This is why an acute change in the hand path can increase the MOF and the angular velocity of the club. One can see points 1-3 in these still images below of SC doing the feet together drill - properly . Previously I was doing it all wrong by forcing my legs to extend too much and squatting too quickly from the top but my rhythm is a lot better now. DG PS. I actually played a round of golf just with my feet together and hit an 85 a couple of years ago (at Essendon in the UK - lovely course). Another 'physics' point to note is that the higher hands in the backswing (caused by the extension in the legs) will increase the hand path , which means any linear force along the hand path will be acting over a longer distance (ie. more work done on the club) and will assist increase in clubhead speed . I also think that the squat move will also tend to make the hand path less curved from P4 to P5.5 and help assist in the production of a greater MOF when the hand path suddenly changes.
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Post by syllogist on Jul 11, 2020 6:46:25 GMT -5
Hi DG,
A few thoughts:
Don't you think perhaps that a left knee that does not extend during the downswing actually inhibits torso rotation (since hip rotation becomes inhibited) and that is why club speed would be inhibited?
Also, consider SMK's research showing the correlation between weight pressure of the left foot at shaft vertical and clubhead speed (as if weight pressure of the left foot is what creates clubhead speed). Why isn't it the opposite, i.e., the greater the rotational force of the body, the greater will be the weight pressure of the left foot, and the greater will be the clubhead speed?
S
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 11, 2020 7:06:11 GMT -5
Hi DG, A few thoughts: Don't you think perhaps that a left knee that does not extend during the downswing actually inhibits torso rotation (since hip rotation becomes inhibited) and that is why club speed would be inhibited? Also, consider SMK's research showing the correlation between weight pressure of the left foot at shaft vertical and clubhead speed (as if weight pressure of the left foot is what creates clubhead speed). Why isn't it the opposite, i.e., the greater the rotational force of the body, the greater will be the weight pressure of the left foot, and the greater will be the clubhead speed? S Hi S Yes, it could be that the golfer has created clubhead speed by some other means that 'requires' he try and get the left hip out of the way quicker too . Which could mean having to press harder on the ground with his lead leg (to use vertical and shear forces between his foot and ground) to assist a quicker rotation of the lead hip (out of the way). SMK has not mentioned the reason why the golfer has to do that move , only the fact that it seems to correlate with clubhead speed. Shawn Clement also mentions that the body is trying to 'get out of the way' and claims clubhead speed is produced by some 'Trebuchet' type effect where the 'butt' is the counterweight. I don't believe SC is correct about the mechanics of clubhead speed but he has somehow intuitively found a technique that seems to work and match the physics (as I know it). When I first went to the range practicing that video type swing , my distance was increased by at least 1 club length but I had great difficulty with accuracy and consistency (but it did get better over the months when I started using 'external focus' cues). DG PS. Here is a podcast with SMK explaining that lead foot vertical/horizontal force action at clubshaft vertical in the downswing . Be sure to hear the section near the end from 22mins onwards. soundcloud.com/golf-science-lab/key-indicator-for-increased-club-head-speed-w-dr-sasho-mackenzieHe says you will have to generate enough body rotation before attempting to add vertical/horizontal force via the lead leg/foot on the ground. If you time that increased lead foot vertical force too early it will restrict your rotation. That this move is unnatural and will need to be learned because when you are pulling along the clubshaft (at vertical) into the ground , physics says that there will be an equal and opposite reaction force pulling your body up (ie. ground reaction force would get smaller ). For example , if each foot were standing on a weighing scale , pulling down on the club would make the readings smaller (you would be weighing less). So somehow you have to learn to increase lead foot vertical force even though the physics is working against you and only after you've created enough body rotation angular momentum to help clear your body to allow space to swing your arms/club into/through impact.
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Post by utahgolfer on Jul 11, 2020 16:01:12 GMT -5
A very nice video. NC definitely understands the golf swing. I especially like the discussion around 16:30 where he discusses how both elbows continue to extend through impact as the torso straightens, with the goal to keep the shaft moving away from you after impact.
UG
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Post by utahgolfer on Jul 11, 2020 17:39:14 GMT -5
The goal to keep the shaft moving away from you for as long as possible to a straight left and right arm position may be a good way to promote a drive hold release. With proper body rotation, we know that the wrists are still extending (dorsi flexing) slightly with the left arm still ahead of the shaft with forward shaft lean at impact. Wrist and forearm motion are certainly minimized and controlled, but there is no real static "hold" of the wrists or forearms as the club shaft moves through the impact zone.
At 3:20, Milo provides an excellent position to emulate with both arms straight and the shaft still in line with his left arm, well past impact. Most golfers can't attain this position due to less than ideal body rotation, but it is a good goal to emulate, and may be an effective instructional strategy of teaching golfers what it means to drive hold release.
UG
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Post by utahgolfer on Jul 12, 2020 18:02:15 GMT -5
Here is Milo hitting a 9-iron. Notice at 2:43, when his shaft begins to pass the left arm, and then compare this with the position of his driver swing at 3:20 (in the previous post).
Normally, the shaft begins to move faster than the left arm, sooner post impact using a driver versus a short iron. However, in Milo's swing it is the opposite. His driver swing travels much farther than his 9-iron swing before the shaft passes the left arm.
Why?
Is it because of a more aggressive counter move (his upper body pulls back harder as his arms and shaft move forward after impact) and a faster left arm swing velocity with his driver swing versus 9-iron swing?
(Sorry for not posting still photos of these two comparison positions. I have photos of these, but am unsure how to post them into this program. It looks like they have to converted to webpages or have a web address. Is that correct?)
UG
PS: Why does this matter since Milo is not a tour player? His swing is very powerful and accurate, and he may use a swing technique that minimizes OTT issues.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 13, 2020 11:19:49 GMT -5
Here is Milo hitting a 9-iron. Notice at 2:43, when his shaft begins to pass the left arm, and then compare this with the position of his driver swing at 3:20 (in the previous post). Normally, the shaft begins to move faster than the left arm, sooner post impact using a driver versus a short iron. However, in Milo's swing it is the opposite. His driver swing travels much farther than his 9-iron swing before the shaft passes the left arm. Why? Is it because of a more aggressive counter move (his upper body pulls back harder as his arms and shaft move forward after impact) and a faster left arm swing velocity with his driver swing versus 9-iron swing? (Sorry for not posting still photos of these two comparison positions. I have photos of these, but am unsure how to post them into this program. It looks like they have to converted to webpages or have a web address. Is that correct?) UG PS: Why does this matter since Milo is not a tour player? His swing is very powerful and accurate, and he may use a swing technique that minimizes OTT issues. I think that the answer is related to the fact that he uses two different patterns of hand release action for his driver swing versus his short iron swing. Here is a capture image from his driver swing video. Note his perfect DH hand release action.
Note his open pelvis and open shoulders and his large degree of secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend. Here are capture images from his short iron swing video. Image 1 is at P7, image 2 is at P7.2, image 3 is at P7.5 and image 4 is at P7.8. Note that he is a borderline DHer and that his clubshaft bypasses his lead arm between P7.2 => P7.5. Note how actively he straightens his trail wrist post-impact, which flip-bends his lead wrist at P7.8. Note how he stalls his pelvis/upper torso rotation through impact and he uses an "armsy" release action through impact. I don't know why Milo prefers to use an "armsy" hand release action for his short iron swing, which is more timing dependent. UG - you can ask Milo because he no longer responds to my e-mail messages. Jeff.
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