Does bowing the lead wrist close the clubface?

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is a link to my video on left wrist bowing.





Look at the commentary section, and note that a person, named Brian M, stated that lead wrist bowing will always cause the clubface to close. Despite my back-and-forth replies, he still believes that lead wrist bowing will always close the clubface.


Here are capture images of Collin Morikawa's end-backswing position.

Image 1 is his driver swing and image 2 is his short iron swing.

CM, like Dustin Johnson, bows his lead wrist during his backswing action so that he has a bowed lead wrist at P4.

However, note that his clubface is straight-in-line (parallel) to the back of his lead hand due to the fact that he adopts a neutral left hand grip and note that there is no evidence of clubface closing secondary to the lead wrist bowing maneuver. The clubface is more horizontal relative to the ground, but that is only due to the fact that the back of his lead hand is more horizontal secondary to his lead wrist bowing maneuver.

Here is Dustin Johnson's lead wrist bowing action.

Image 1 is at address. DJ uses a moderately strong left hand grip, which causes the clubface to be slightly closed relative to the back of his lead hand.

Image 2 is at P3. Note that DJ is starting to bow his lead wrist. However, note that his clubface is not closing more and it is remaining closed relative to the back of his lead hand by the same amount as existed at address.

Image 3 is at P4. Note that his lead wrist is maximally bowed, but note that his clubface is not closing more relative to the back of his lead hand.

It is a fallacy to believe that "pure" lead wrist bowing - in the absence of a lead wrist circumductory roll motion and/or a twistaway maneuver - will close the clubface relative to the back of the lead hand.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is another example showing the difference between Dustin Johnson's bowed lead wrist phenomenon and a twisaway maneuver.

Here are capture images of Dustin Johnson at P6.

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5.5 and image 3 is at P6.

I have drawn a blue line along the back of his lead hand and a red line along his clubface. Note that his clubface is sightly closed relative to the back of his lead hand by a small amount due to the fact that he adopts a moderately strong left hand grip. Note that the degree does not change between P4 => P6.

Now, consider what happens during a twistaway maneuver - as demonstrated by Brian Manzella.

Note that the clubface is straight-line-aligned (parallel) to the back of his lead hand (which is cupped) in image 1 - before he performs a twistaway maneuver.

Note that the clubface becomes closed relative to the back of his lead hand when he executes a twistaway maneuver in image 2. If he performed a "pure" lead wrist bowing action (in the absence of a twisaway maneuver), then the clubface would change its angle in direct proportion to the change in angle of the back of his lead hand as he moves from having a cupped lead wrist to having a bowed lead wrist - but it would remain straight-line-aligned relative to the back of his lead hand. The fact that the clubface is closed relative to the back of his lead hand in image 2 proves that a twistaway maneuver is being performed. An useful visual clue that a twistaway maneuver is being enacted is to note that the 4th and 5th knuckles are more curled-in compared to the 2nd knuckle.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is another way of understanding what effect "pure" left wrist bowing has on the club.

Consider again these capture images of Collin Morikawa at his P4 position.

Note that his lead wrist is bowed. What effect did left wrist bowing have on his clubshaft and clubface?

To better understand this point, I did the following Photoshop maneuver.

I first copied a small segment of image 2 - see below.

I then pasted that segment back on top of image 2, but I first rotated it ~30 degrees so that the back of the lead hand is straight-line-aligned with the back of his lead forearm - see below.

By comparing image 2 to image 1, you can see that "pure" lead wrist bowing (as seen in image 1) changes the position of the clubshaft so that the clubshaft becomes more horizontal (more "laid-off") and at a different angle relative to the lead forearm, and it does not cause the clubshaft to twist about its longitudinal axis. The clubface becomes more horizontal (relative to the ground) because the lead hand is rotating around the lead wrist joint during the lead wrist bowing maneuver and that changes the clubshaft angle, and therefore the clubface angle.

Many uninformed golfers would label that clubface (in image 1) as being more closed because it is more horizontally aligned, and less vertically aligned, at P4. However, that's a nomenclature issue of "how to label the position of the clubface by examining its position relative to the ground". What is really happening in "true life" reality is that the clubshaft is changing its alignment relative to the lead forearm.

What would happen if CM kept that same clubshaft alignment (due to lead wrist bowing) unchanged relative to his lead forearm all the way to P6.5?

In the left-sided image, CM is at the P6.5 position. Note that he still has an unchanged bowed lead wrist, which angles his clubshaft back-and-inside relative to his lead forearm, while his clubface is still straight-line-aligned (parallel) to the back of his lead hand. The right sided image (produced by Photoshop) is where his clubshaft would be located if the clubshaft was straight-in-line with his lead forearm - it would be angled more forwards-and-outwards. Note that the change in clubshaft position changes the angle of the clubface relative to the ball-target line, and it is more closed relative to the ball-target line in the right-sided image and more open relative to the ball-target line in the left-sided image (which is the "true reality").

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Imho, the above CM post is a much easier visual way of explaining the effect of a bowed lead wrist.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

I wrote the following in a previous post-: "It is a fallacy to believe that "pure" lead wrist bowing - in the absence of a lead wrist circumductory roll motion and/or a twistaway maneuver - will close the clubface relative to the back of the lead hand."

I now realize that I am wrong! "Pure" lead wrist bowing will actually rotate the clubface closed if the wrist is radially deviated.

So, when Brian M wrote the following comment in response to my video-: "If I sit in a chair and hold the butt end of an iron on my left thigh and point the club to the ceiling and bow my left wrist, the club face clearly closes to the target line. --- If I hold my left arm just below my wrist with my thumb pointing in the air with my fingers simulating holding a club, it is impossible to bow my left wrist and my knuckles that are pointing away from me NOT rotate to the right, since my wrist is fixed at the point it attaches to the arm, the rotation is in an arc (circular). When holding a club, this rotation rotates the shaft and closes the club face. It is impossible not to rotate the face when doing this ---" then Brian is correct. In other words, under the conditions described by Brian, the clubshaft is being rotated around its longitudinal axis while the lead wrist bows.

I previously argued that the twistaway maneuver causes clubface closure due to a finger torquing action that twists the clubshaft around its longitudinal axis. I now realize that I am partially wrong. What a twistaway maneuver also does is cause a lead wrist circumductory roll motion that increases the degree of clubface closure.

So, consider these capture images of Brian Manzella demonstrating the twistaway maneuver.

Note that the clubface is straight-line-aligned with the back of his lead hand in image 1.

Now, imagine bowing your lead wrist from that position without performing a twistaway maneuver while making sure that the clubface remains straight-lined-aligned with the back of the lead hand. The clubface will close as the lead wrist moves from being cupped to becoming bowed and that is due to the clubshaft rotating in space around its longitudinal axis. In other words, Brian M is correct to state that lead wrist bowing (when it is radially deviated) will cause clubface closure.

Now, what does a twistaway maneuver actually do differently to "pure" left wrist bowing in that BM-demo scenario? When one performs a twistway maneuver, one strenously torques the clubshaft counterclockwise with the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers while one is bowing the lead wrist and that causes a lead wrist circumductory roll motion that increases the degree of clubface closing. Most importantly, it is critical to understand that the twistaway maneuver does not add clubface closure by only increasing the degree of clubshaft rotation around its longitudinal axis due to a greater degree of finger torquing action enacted by the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers, and that it also causes clubface closure by causing a lead wrist circumductory roll motion.

I am now thankful for the "Brian M criticism" because it forces me to revise my opinions on this topic to more accurately reflect reality. I will, in response, produce a new video on the topic of "Does lead wrist bowing close the clubface?" I now have a much better way of describing what really happens during the lead wrist bowing phenomenon seen in some pro golfers.

Jeff.

 

[imperfectgolfer]

Consider this image showing Jon Sinclair demonstrating that the clubface closes ~40 degrees when he bows his lead wrist.

Note that his lead wrist is cupped in image 1 and overtly bowed in image 2 and that is due to a "pure" lead wrist bowing maneuver that causes the clubshaft to rotate ~40 degrees around its longitudinal axis. I stated in another thread that it it was due to the fact that JS was performing a twistaway maneuver, but I am incorrect.

That clubface closure is causally due to a a "pure" lead wrist bowing action.

Now, consider this other image of JS performing a lead wrist bowing action.

In this demonstration, Jon only measured 13 degrees of clubshaft rotation in a closing direction. Why is it so much less than the 40 degrees seen in the first (above) demonstration performed at shoulder level? I now believe that the correct answer is that his lead wrist is now ulnar-deviated (and not radially deviated) so that the same degree of lead wrist bowing (under a condition of ulnar deviation) causes a significant amount of angulation of the clubshaft and very little finger torquing clubshaft rotation, and that any clubshaft rotation seen is mainly due to a circumductory roll motion of the lead wrist and that the amount of circumductory roll motion is directly proportional to the magnitude of the accumulator #3 angle. If JS repeated that demonstration using a high mid-palmar grip (like Bryson DeChambeau), which zeroes-out the accumulator #3 angle, then the same lead wrist bowing demonstration would angulate the clubshaft with no clubface closure. By contrast, if JS adopted a finger grip in order to maximise the accumulator #3 angle, and then repeated his demonstration using the same amount of lead wrist bowing action, then the degree of clubface closure due to a lead wrist circumductory roll motion would be greater.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

So are you are saying :

1. Palmar flexion alone cannot close the clubface - it opens and causes more shaft angulation
2. Palmar flexion with radial deviation will close the clubface and cause more shaft angulation
3. Palmar flexion + radial deviation + twistaway will cause greater clubface closure than point 2 and more shaft angulation.

DG

PS. I posted this without seeing your JS post . 

I'll need to think about this again.

[imperfectgolfer]

Sept 24, 2020 10:59:35 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

So are you are saying :

1. Palmar flexion alone cannot close the clubface - it opens and causes more shaft angulation
2. Palmar flexion with radial deviation will close the clubface and cause more shaft angulation
3. Palmar flexion + radial deviation + twistaway will cause greater clubface closure than point 2 and more shaft angulation.

DG

No! That does not represent my new position.

I am stating that if you radially deviate the lead wrist so that there is a 90 degree angle between the clubshaft and the lead forearm, that "pure" lead wrist bowing will maximise the degree of clubshaft rotation with very little (if any) clubshaft angulation. Try the scenario described by Brian M as he described it -: "If I sit in a chair and hold the butt end of an iron on my left thigh and point the club to the ceiling and bow my left wrist, the club face clearly closes to the target line." In that scenario, make sure that your lead wrist is 90 degrees radially deviated and make sure that the clubshaft remains vertical during the "pure" lead wrist bowing maneuver.The result should be clubshaft rotation and no (or very little) clubshaft angulation. Adding an element of twistaway will increase the degree of clubface closure because the lead wrist will undergo a lead wrist circumductory roll motion at the same time as you bow the lead wrist and it will cause a small degree of clubshaft angulation that will cause the clubshaft not to be vertical during the "lead wrist bowing + twistaway maneuver" action.

I am also stating that if the lead wrist is ulnar deviated to a large degree such that there is no accumulator #3 angle, then "pure" lead wrist bowing will maximally angulate the clubshaft with very little clubshaft rotation about its longitudinal axis, and that any any clubface closing will be mainly due to an associated lead wrist circumductory roll motion that may happen during the lead wrist bowing action. Adopting a mid-high palmar grip will result in less clubface closure than if you used a low palmar grip during this scenario.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Many thanks .

I tried the BM scenario (90 degree radial deviation and 'pure' lead wrist bowing) and agree the clubshaft rotates in space with very little angulation.

For me personally , when I add a degree of twistaway, my wrist moves with a circumductory roll motion favouring the ulnar direction (I find it impossible to do a circumductory roll favouring radial deviation). So if the latter , then won't my #3 angle decrease , angulation increase , clubshaft rotation decrease?

DG

PS. If there is a decrease in #3 angle , then won't that impact the degree of PA#2 release?

[imperfectgolfer]

Sept 24, 2020 11:37:00 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

Many thanks .

I tried the BM scenario (90 degree radial deviation and 'pure' lead wrist bowing) and agree the clubshaft rotates in space with very little angulation.

For me personally , when I add a degree of twistaway, my wrist moves with a circumductory roll motion favouring the ulnar direction (I find it impossible to do a circumductory roll favouring radial deviation). So if the latter , then won't my #3 angle decrease , angulation increase , clubshaft rotation decrease?

DG

DG,

I agree that adding a twistaway maneuver causes a roll motion of the lead wrist favoring an ulnar direction, but that actually increases clubface closure. I find it physically impossible to perform a twistaway maneuver (during that described lead wrist bowing action) that will angulate the clubshaft in a more radial direction because one is using the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers (ulnar side fingers) to perform the twistaway maneuver.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Many thanks

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

In my last post, I noted that Jon Sinclair demonstrated that if he bowed his lead wrist when his lead wrist was radially deviated that he could get ~40 degrees of clubface closing with very little clubshaft angulation, and that if bowed his lead wrist when his lead wrist was ulnar deviated that he could get a lot of clubshaft angulation and a small amount of clubface closing. I decided to see if I could duplicate his findings by performing the following simple experiment.

I adopted a weak neutral lead hand grip where I placed my thumb down the shaft and I also used a low palmar lead hand grip.

 

I then radially deviated my lead wrist to get my clubshaft pointing towards the ceiling with my clubshaft being vertical (as Brian M described). Image 1 shows a side-view image of my lead wrist. Note that my 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers become roughly perpendicular to the club handle when my lead wrist is radially deviated.

Image 2 is a birds-eye viewing image looking down at my grip. Note that I have a weak (one knuckle) lead hand grip and note that I have placed my lead thumb on the top of the shaft. By looking at my thumb nail, I can roughly determine whether the clubshaft will rotate when I bow my lead wrist - by seeing whether my thumb nail rotates clockwise.

Image 3 depicts what happens when I bow my lead wrist. Note that the clubshaft remains nearly vertical and that there is no/very little clubshaft angulation. Note that my thumb nail rotates clockwise as the clubshaft rotates about its longitudinal axis, but my lead thumb remains roughly vertical.

Note that my lead forearm supinates to a small degree and that is because I was using my right hand to operate the camera and I could not use it to stabilise my lead lower forearm just above the lead wrist joint level. After taking the photograph, I repeated the lead wrist bowing maneuver while stabilising my lead lower forearm with my right hand to prevent any forearm supinatory motion - and I found the results to be identical.

What I am demonstrating is that "pure" lead wrist bowing (in the absence of a twistaway maneuver or lead wrist circumduction) closes the clubface by rotating the clubshaft around its longitudinal axis and it does not produce any clubshaft angulation (or very little clubshaft angulation) - if the lead wrist is radially deviated.

I then repeated the lead wrist bowing maneuver when the lead wrist is ulnar-deviated.

Image 1 shows that I have adopted a weak lead hand grip where the club handle is in a low palmar positional alignment. Note that my lead wrist is ulnar deviated. Note that the clubshaft is not perpendicular to my lead forearm and it is slanted by an amount that is compatible with a low palmar grip alignment (producing a moderate-sized accumulator #3 angle). Note that my 4th and 5th fingers are roughly perpendicular to the club handle while my 2nd and 3rd fingers are more angled relative to the club handle.

Image 2 is a birds-eye viewing image looking down at my grip. Note that I have a weak (one knuckle) lead hand grip and my lead thumb is placed on top of the club handle. Note that the club handle is perpendicular to the image's side-borders.

Image 3 shows what happens when I bow my lead wrist. Note that my clubshaft angulates a lot to the right (away from the target) and that there is no clubshaft rotation that causes my lead thumb nail to rotate clockwise.

Note that my lead forearm supinates because I could not use my right hand to stabilise my lead lower forearm just above lead wrist joint level. What effect could lead forearm supination theoretically produce during this lead wrist bowing maneuver? It could theoretically cause clubface closing during the lead wrist bowing demonstration, but that did not happen in this demonstration. After taking the photograph, I repeated the lead wrist bowing phenomenon while using my right hand to stabilise my lead lower forearm just above the level of my lead wrist joint. The result was the same - the clubshaft angulated with no (or very little) clubshaft rotation in a clubface-closing direction.

What I am demonstrating is that "pure" lead wrist bowing (in the absence of a twisaway maneuver or lead wrist circumduction) produces a significant amount of clubshaft angulation with no (or very little) clubshaft rotation in a clubface-closing direction - if the lead wrist is ulnar deviated.

Why did Jon Sinclair get 13 degrees of clubshaft rotation in a clubface closing direction in his demonstration?

Here are capture images of JS's demonstration.

Note that lead wrist bowing causes a lot of clubshaft angulation (away from the target) when the lead wrist is ulnar deviated.

Note that the clubface is closing very slightly during this demonstration. Why? My theory is that JS is unintentionally circumducting his lead wrist to a small degree while he bows his lead wrist by allowing his lead hand to move slightly more in an ulnar direction while his lead wrist bows. To test this hypothesis, I performed this demonstration many times and I found that it is more easily possible to produce lead wrist circumduction in an ulnar direction under the following conditions - i) if the degree of ulnar deviation is exaggerated or ii) if the 4th and 5th fingers apply too much finger-torquing action (in a twistaway manner) during the lead wrist bowing maneuver.

I recommend that you personally perform this "lead wrist bowing maneuver when the lead wrist is ulnar deviated" demonstration at home, and see whether you can produce significant clubshaft angulation with no (or very little) clubshaft rotation around its longitudinal axis in a clubface closing direction.

What did I learn from this experiment?

I have learned two fundamental biomechanical facts.

1) "Pure" lead wrist bowing (in the absence of a twistaway maneuver or lead wrist circumduction) closes the clubface by rotating the clubshaft around its longitudinal axis and it does not produce any clubshaft angulation (or very little clubshaft angulation) - if the lead wrist is radially deviated.

2) "Pure" lead wrist bowing (in the absence of a twisaway maneuver or lead wrist circumduction) produces a significant amount of clubshaft angulation with no (or very little) clubshaft rotation in a clubface-closing direction - if the lead wrist is ulnar deviated.

These two fundamental biomechanical principles, if correct, would predict the following phenomena in a pro golfer who uses a bowed lead wrist technique during the P4 => P7 time period.

i) Pro golfers, who use the bowed wrist technique where the lead wrist is already bowed by P4 and who keep the lead wrist continuously bowed between P4 -> P5.5  (while the lead wrist remains radially deviated), should have clubface closing due to clubshaft rotation in rough proportion to their degree of lead wrist bowing.

ii) Pro golfers, who keep their lead wrist bowed to a significant degree between P6 => P7 (while the lead wrist becomes increasingly ulnar-deviated) should show evidence of clubshaft angulation that creates a lot of forward shaft lean (but with no additional clubshaft rotation in a clubface closing direction) in the later downswing.

To test whether my hypothesis is true, I will analyse the swings of a number of pro golfers (who use the bowed lead wrist technique) in a series of future posts.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

This is very interesting and looking forward to your analysis, especially a possible different explanation as to why DJ has to supinate his lead forearm more by P7 with a bowed wrist.

If he bows it at P4 with radial deviation , then I'm assuming the clubface closes (according to your post above)

If he retains that bowing while going into ulnar deviation , will the clubface still retain that closed effect at P4 but now be more angulated from P6.5- P7 due to increased ulnar deviation? So why would he need to supinate his lead forearm more by P7 than it was at P1?

Wondering if the degree of angulation from P6.5 causes the clubface to be approaching more from the inside and still open to the ball-target line (even with the retained closing effect at P4)? If yes, then that could explain why he still needs to supinate his lead forearm more by P7.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Sept 25, 2020 21:54:28 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

This is very interesting and looking forward to your analysis, especially a possible different explanation as to why DJ has to supinate his lead forearm more by P7 with a bowed wrist.

If he bows it at P4 with radial deviation , then I'm assuming the clubface closes (according to your post above)

If he retains that bowing while going into ulnar deviation , will the clubface still retain that closed effect at P4 but now be more angulated from P6.5- P7 due to increased ulnar deviation? So why would he need to supinate his lead forearm more by P7 than it was at P1?

Wondering if the degree of angulation from P6.5 causes the clubface to be approaching more from the inside and still open to the ball-target line (even with the retained closing effect at P4)? If yes, then that could explain why he still needs to supinate his lead forearm more by P7.

DG

The answers to your questions will become very apparent to you when you read my next post where I analyse the golf swing of a pro golfer who uses the bowed lead wrist technique.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann - yes look forward to your next post

Been thinking a bit more about your point 2 findings above and that raises another question about hand release actions. If point 2 is correct, golfers who are in ulnar deviation approaching P7 and moving their lead wrist from flexion-extension (without any twistaway or circumduction) , that specific biomechanical action has no effect on clubface rotation through impact.

DG