Does bowing the lead wrist close the clubface?

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks Dr Mann

DG

[utahgolfer]

Jeff,

Wow, what an insightful thread. There is always another layer to uncover and explore.

When I bow my left wrist at p4, I will hook the ball consistently. Does that mean my grip is too strong? Or that I don't have enough ulnar deviation coming into impact?

Do you still believe that twistaway disappears by p7?

Did Brian M only discuss the radial-deviated lead wrist bowing example? Did you expand upon this to include the ulnar-deviated example and club shaft angulation?

Do you believe that CM and other pros that bow the lead wrist have more ulnar-deviation range of motion than average? If so, how much more?

How does CC time up his bowed wrist in such a short window of time? I imagine the structure of the left forearm and wrist help make this easier to do in such a short time.

I would imagine the average person with average ulnar-deviation ROM who bows the left wrist would have a higher risk of an ulnar-deviation wrist injury compared with these pros you have highlighted.

Do you think that JS uses a very strong grip because he can get a sharper angle between his left arm and club shaft (due to more radial deviation and dorsiflexion)? Do you think CM has a greater left arm to club shaft angle (limited wrist hinge) due to bowing his lead wrist?

Doesn't JS still have plenty of forward shaft lean at impact since he has very little left forearm supination coming into impact?

Does the intact left arm flying wedge swing have a lower forward shaft lean potential compared with a bowed left wrist or dorsiflexed wrist due to a very strong grip?

Do pros who have forward shaft lean while using an intact flying wedge swing do so because of excellent body rotation and a relatively low right shoulder through impact?

Would a person with limited wrist flexibility do better with a very strong grip and no left forearm supination, in terms of generating power and accuracy?

Thanks for your insights!

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

My answers.

When I bow my left wrist at p4, I will hook the ball consistently. Does that mean my grip is too strong? Or that I don't have enough ulnar deviation coming into impact?

Are you flipping through impact when you hook the ball? Bowing your lead wrist is not naturally comfortable for you and you may then non-intentionally go from lead wrist bowing => lead wrist extension in the late downswing and flip through impact.

Do you still believe that twistaway disappears by p7?

Yes. Twistaway involves an extra degree of clubshaft twisting force involving the lead hand's 4th and 5th fingers due to the flexor digitorum profundus muscles that are actively contracting and it also secondarily causes ulnar deviation of the lead hand thereby adding an additional element of left wrist circumductory roll motion that also closes the clubface. Both of those clubface closing phenomena dissipate in the later downswing.

Did Brian M only discuss the radial-deviated lead wrist bowing example? Did you expand upon this to include the ulnar-deviated example and club shaft angulation?

Brian M only discussed the clubface closing effect of lead wrist bowing when the lead wrist is radially deviated and when the clubshaft does not angulate in space. My new insight came when I realised that lead wrist bowing causes clubshaft angulation with no (or very little) clubface closing when the lead wrist is ulnar deviated.

Do you believe that CM and other pros that bow the lead wrist have more ulnar-deviation range of motion than average? If so, how much more?

I have no evidence that they ulnar deviate their lead wrist more than average. They do not have a smaller accumulator #3 angle at impact than other pro golfers who do not bow the lead wrist.

How does CC time up his bowed wrist in such a short window of time? I imagine the structure of the left forearm and wrist help make this easier to do in such a short time.

I do not think that it is difficult to time the lead wrist going from a GFLW to a bowed lead wrist during the P5.5 => P6.2 time period if one is leading with the lead wrist and pulling the club handle around the corner between P5.5 => P6.2.

The following animated gif images show that Ben Hogan went from a cupped lead wrist to a bowed lead wrist during that time period.

I would imagine the average person with average ulnar-deviation ROM who bows the left wrist would have a higher risk of an ulnar-deviation wrist injury compared with these pros you have highlighted.

I know of no reason to support that belief. Bowing the lead wrist does not mean that a golfer is driving the lead wrist into ulnar deviation with greater force in the later downswing.

Do you think that JS uses a very strong grip because he can get a sharper angle between his left arm and club shaft (due to more radial deviation and dorsiflexion)? Do you think CM has a greater left arm to club shaft angle (limited wrist hinge) due to bowing his lead wrist?

I suspect that Jamie Sadlowski uses a strong lead hand grip so that he can avoid using a large amount of PA#3 release action during his late downswing. By extending his lead wrist at P4, JS can increase his clubshaft lag angle. Bowing the lead wrist at P4 decreases one ability to create a large clubshaft lag angle at P4.

Doesn't JS still have plenty of forward shaft lean at impact since he has very little left forearm supination coming into impact?

No. I think that if a golfer has a very strong lead hand grip at address and also when coming into impact, then the lifelines of the lead palm are angulated to the right at address and at impact thereby automatically creating a condition of forward shaft lean.

Does the intact left arm flying wedge swing have a lower forward shaft lean potential compared with a bowed left wrist or dorsiflexed wrist due to a very strong grip?

Yes. Theoretically there can be no forward shaft lean at impact if the LAFW is intact. It is only possible because the lead forearm is still slightly pronated at impact and that produces a small amount of forward shaft lean (which means that there is an intact LFFW, but not an intact LAFW, at impact) in combination with the fact that the lead wrist becomes less cupped, and very slightly flexed, when a GLFW goes from being in radial deviation => being in ulnar deviation.

Do pros who have forward shaft lean while using an intact flying wedge swing do so because of excellent body rotation and a relatively low right shoulder through impact?

No.

I think that it is entirely due to the fact that their lead forearm is still slightly pronated at impact, which means that they have not yet completed their release of PA#3 that allows the clubshaft to becomes perfectly straight-line-aligned with their lead upper arm at impact and that only happens by ~P7.1 when the intact LFFW again becomes an intact LAFW.

Would a person with limited wrist flexibility do better with a very strong grip and no left forearm supination, in terms of generating power and accuracy?

I think that the opposite scenario would be more likely. Having an element of lead forearm supination happening in the later downswing may give a golfer more lead hand mobility, and therefore potentially more clubshaft mobility.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

In this post, I am going to analyse the clubface closing effect and clubshaft angling effect effect of a bowed lead wrist in another pro golfer - Jordan Spieth - who also uses the bowed lead wrist technique.

Here are capture of JS's P4 => P6 time period.

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5+, image 3 is at P5.5 and image 4 is at P6.

JS uses a weak lead hand grip and he bows his lead wrist to a small degree during his backswing action. Note that he has small degree of lead wrist bowing at P4, and that closes the clubface to the clubhead arc by a small degree (~10 degrees).

At P5, he seems to have the same degree of lead wrist bowing and his clubface is not closing more relative to his clubhead arc.

Note that he seems to be using an added element of "increased lead wrist bowing + early lead forearm supination" around P5.5/P6, but that does not seen to increase his degree of clubface closure relative to the clubhead arc and his clubface still seems to be only about ~10 degrees closed relative to his clubhead arc at P6 - probably because his lead wrist is far less radially deviated at P6 compared to P5 and because his clubshaft is angling back more relative to his lead forearm during that same P5 => P6 time period.

Here are capture images of his P6.2 => P7 time period.

Image 1 is at P6.25, image 2 is at P6.5, image 3 is at P6.75 and image 4 is at impact.

Note that his clubface is only about 10 degrees closed to his clubhead arc at P6.25 (relative to Henrik Stenson at a similar position).

Note how his clubface closes steadily between P6.25 => P7 due to a PA#3 release action - note how much the back of his lead hand rotates counterclockwise between P6.25 => P7 due to a lead forearm supinatory action.

Note that JS has only a small amount of lead wrist bowing at impact (~9 degrees according to 3D data) and that his clubshaft is not angled back as much (as seen in Collin Morikawa's late downswing and impact images). Therefore, his lead forearm at impact does not look as supinated as Collin Morikawa's lead forearm at impact.

Compared to Henrik Stenson - it looks like he is using a similar amount of PA#3 release action between P6.2 => P7 even though his clubface is slightly more closed by ~10 degrees at their comparable P6.2 positions. I strongly suspect that JS's clubface is actually rolling clockwise by 5-10 degrees (in the opposite direction that lead wrist bowing rolls the clubface when the lead wrist is radially deviated) while he is performing a PA#3 release action. That means that he would need to compensate for that 5- 10 degrees of clockwise rotation by using an additional 5-10 degrees of PA#3 release action between P6.2 => P7.

Why would his clubface roll clockwise by 5-10 degrees, thereby requiring 5-10 degrees of more clubface closing due to the lead forearm supination phenomenon that is happening between P6.2 => P7?

According to 3D data, JS's lead wrist is 23 degrees bowed at P6 and only 9 degrees bowed at P7. That means that his lead wrist is moving towards extension in his late downswing. I think that its "effect" on clubface closing would be to cause the clubshaft to roll clockwise (in the opposite direction that his clubface would roll due to increased lead wrist bowing when his lead wrist is radially deviated) so that it would be less closed to the clubhead arc (relative to an imaginary scenario where he retained his 23 degrees of lead wrist bowing during his PA#3 release action).

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

In a previous post you said the following:

"Let's presume that his clubface is still closed to his clubhead arc by about 30 degrees (compared to an intact LAFW scenario) at his P6.2 position as a result of his lead wrist bowing phenomenon that happened between P4 => P6 (when his lead wrist was radially deviated to a significant degree). Theoretically, that could be an advantage because it could potentially decrease the amount of lead forearm supination required during his PA#3 release action in order to get a square clubface by impact.

However, that theoretical advantage would only really apply if he converted from having a bowed lead wrist to having a non-bowed lead wrist at ~P6 and if he came into impact with a non-bowed lead wrist and no forward shaft lean. "

Doesn't the above apply to JS? But when I read the above post it seems to infer that the clubface is opening 5-10 degrees as his bowing lessens from P6.2- P7.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Oct 7, 2020 17:09:43 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

In a previous post you said the following:

"Let's presume that his clubface is still closed to his clubhead arc by about 30 degrees (compared to an intact LAFW scenario) at his P6.2 position as a result of his lead wrist bowing phenomenon that happened between P4 => P6 (when his lead wrist was radially deviated to a significant degree). Theoretically, that could be an advantage because it could potentially decrease the amount of lead forearm supination required during his PA#3 release action in order to get a square clubface by impact.

However, that theoretical advantage would only really apply if he converted from having a bowed lead wrist to having a non-bowed lead wrist at ~P6 and if he came into impact with a non-bowed lead wrist and no forward shaft lean. "

Doesn't the above apply to JS? But when I read the above post it seems to infer that the clubface is opening 5-10 degrees as his bowing lessens from P6.2- P7.

DG

Let's presume that converting from a bowed lead wrist at P6 to a non-bowed lead wrist at P7 causes the clubface to open by 5-10%. Then, if Collin Morikawa had 30 degrees of clubface closure at P6.2, he would lose 5-10 degrees of clubface closing if he converted to having a non-bowed lead wrist at impact. Then, he would only have a clubface closing advantage of 20-25 degrees at impact. However, he still needs to use more clubface closing via a PA#3 release action because he reaches impact with a very bowed lead wrist and lots of forward shaft lean that opens the clubface relative to the ball-target line. That clubface opening phenomenon due to forward shaft lean may/may not be equal to the clubface closing advantage he had at P6.2. I guess that it would be less in amount, and that he has a small net clubface closing advantage that will potentially decrease the required amount of the PA#3 release's clubface-closing phenomenon required to get a square clubface by impact. Note that I am only guessing because I do not have access to his 3D data and I don't know what's the true reality.

By contrast, if Jordan Spieth reaches P6.2 with 10 degrees of clubface closing and then loses 5-10 degrees between P6 => P7 because his lead wrist bowing decreases from 23 degrees at P6 to 9 degrees at P7, then he only has a minimal clubface closing advantage of 0-5 degrees at P7. Then, the amount of PA#3 release action required would be roughly equal to a golfer who uses a weak lead hand grip with no bowing.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Maybe I am misunderstanding something:

I still don't understand how JS's loses 5-10 degrees between P6 => P7 when his lead wrist bowing decreases from 23 degrees to 9?

If he has bowed his lead wrist between P4-P6 he has closed his clubface 10 degrees (when in radial deviation).

But by P6 onwards he is moving into ulnar deviation - which, if lead wrist is still bowed, angulates the clubface more open relative to the target line . But if he is actually unbowing his lead wrist while in ulnar deviation , isn't he just causing less angulation (less clubface opening relative to target line) while keeping the original 'clubface closure effect from P4-P6'? Therefore I cannot understand how he could be losing 5-10 degrees clubface closing effect between P6=>P7 by just bowing decrease alone.

I could however understand JS losing 5-10 degrees if he was using Twistaway that was dissipating between P6=>P7.

DG

PS. Let me reflect on this again tomorrow - it might become clearer to me.

[utahgolfer]

Jeff, thanks for answering my questions. You are the golf guru!

In your last post, I’m unsure how JS’s club face rotates clockwise (open) as he increases lead wrist extension.

You stated: According to 3D data, JS's lead wrist is 23 degrees bowed at P6 and only 9 degrees bowed at P7. That means that his lead wrist is moving towards extension in his late downswing. I think that its "effect" on clubface closing would be to cause the clubshaft to roll clockwise (in the opposite direction that his clubface would roll due to increased lead wrist bowing when his lead wrist is radially deviated) so that it would be less closed to the clubhead arc (relative to an imaginary scenario where he retained his 23 degrees of lead wrist bowing during his PA#3 release action).

Are you suggesting that JS’s lead forearm pronates as his lead wrists extends? I’m not sure how else the club face could rotate clockwise. I am probably missing something.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

DG,

You wrote-: "But by P6 onwards he is moving into ulnar deviation - which, if lead wrist is still bowed, angulates the clubface more open relative to the target line . But if he is actually unbowing his lead wrist while in ulnar deviation , isn't he just causing less angulation (less clubface opening relative to target line) while keeping the original 'clubface closure effect from P4-P6'? Therefore I cannot understand how he could be losing 5-10 degrees clubface closing effect between P6=>P7 by just bowing decrease alone."

Let me explain why I think that he loses 5-10 degrees of his original clubface closing effect that existed at P6 if the lead wrist moves towards extension in the later downswing. If the lead wrist is extending between P6 => P7, then the clenched fingers (which were causally responsible for torquing the club handle in a clubface closing direction when the lead wrist was becoming bowed) are moving in the opposite direction and therefore in a clubface opening direction. Also, in the late downswing the peripheral clubshaft is bent forward suggesting that the peripheral clubshaft is traveling faster than the club handle end of the club, and that means that the clubhead end of the clubshaft is pulling the hands forward, which are not quite able to keep up (thereby creating a negative torque scenario). If the momentum of the releasing club is pulling the lead hand forward in a negative torque scenario in the later downswing, that will also tend to promote an unclenching of the fingers of the lead hand. If the golfer simultaneously maintains a bowed lead wrist under those conditions, then he is resisting any finger unclenching phenomenon. However, if the golfer allows the lead wrist to extend under those same conditions, then finger unclenching (= less finger clenching in a clubface closing direction) is more likely, and that will have a clubface opening effect.

In other words, if lead wrist bowing causes clubface closing by allowing the clenched fingers to rotate the club handle counterclockwise, then lead wrist extension must have the opposite effect and it will cause the club handle to rotate clockwise.

Here is the photograph from the Life magazine article showing Hogan's secret.

Hogan believed that increasing the degree of cupping (extension) of his lead wrist at P4 would open his clubface and help prevent him from hooking the ball. Note how moving the lead wrist towards increasing lead wrist extension causes the club handle to rotate clockwise.

UG,

You wrote-: "Are you suggesting that JS’s lead forearm pronates as his lead wrists extends? I’m not sure how else the club face could rotate clockwise. I am probably missing something."

No! The lead forearm supinates as the lead wrist extends and that produces a clubface closing action. However, if the finger clenching action, which was causally responsible for closing the clubface when the lead wrist was originally becoming bowed, becomes diminished while the lead wrist is extending (as explained above in my reply to DG), then that means that a lesser degree of finger clenching action in a clubface closing direction is equivalent to the fingers torquing the club handle in the opposite direction (in a clubface opening direction) during the release of PA#3.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

I understand your post above , but what would be the net effect on clubface rotation when one also has to factor in the effect of changing club angulation (due to increased ulnar deviation) from P6=>P7 ?

For example , if the 'unbowing'  happened while in ulnar deviation , it wouldn't rotate the club but cause less angulation relative to the target line.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Oct 8, 2020 12:25:23 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

I understand your post above , but what would be the net effect on clubface rotation when one also has to factor in the effect of changing club angulation (due to increased ulnar deviation) from P6=>P7 ?

For example , if the 'unbowing'  happened while in ulnar deviation , it wouldn't rotate the club but cause less angulation relative to the target line.

DG

It is too complex for me to calculate the net effect on clubshaft rotation. I suspect that the clubface opening effect due to the left wrist extension phenomenon rotating the club handle clockwise predominates in the P6 => P6.5 time period and the clubshaft angulation phenomenon predominates between P6.5 => P7 when ulnar deviation is at its maximum value. My figure of 5 - 10 degrees of clubface opening due to lead wrist extension causing a clockwise rotation of the club handle is a "pure" guess and it may be <5 degrees, rather than being between 5 - 10 degrees. I don't know how the magnitude of its "effect" can be quantified in a scientifically conclusive manner.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Many thanks.

I seem to remember a previous thread/posts where we were looking at handle twist velocity  Grip roll and Clubface Closure Rate (I think it was an AMG Gears video) for some pro golfers and you asked a question why the 'clubface closure rate'  decreased approaching impact. I'm now wondering whether your above posts offer a possible explanation for that effect.

DG

[utahgolfer]

Jeff, you stated:

I think that it is entirely due to the fact that their lead forearm is still slightly pronated at impact, which means that they have not yet completed their release of PA#3 that allows the clubshaft to becomes perfectly straight-line-aligned with their lead upper arm at impact and that only happens by ~P7.1 when the intact LFFW again becomes an intact LAFW.

I understand the lead forearm could still be slightly pronated at impact with forward shaft lean, but wouldn’t the lead forearm still be less pronated or more supinated than it was at a neutral address?

UG

[dubiousgolfer]

Just found Dr Mann's previous post regarding Grip Roll and Clubface Closure rate. Isn't the effect of reduced clubface closure rate (while Grip Roll seems to increase) related to some of the findings in the earlier posts where angulation seems to open the clubface as increased ulnar deviation occurs from P6.5 =>P7?

Difficult to know whether the golfers were bowing and flattening their wrists in these videos because of the questionable integrity of the wrist flexion/extension avatar images.

DG





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May 11, 2018 22:02:27 GMT 1 imperfectgolfer said:
I totally forgot to bring up a critical issue that pertains to the relationship between grip roll and any clubface closure simultaneously happening relative to the clubhead arc.

Consider this series of capture images.




Note that at P7, that the clubshaft is perpendicular to the clubhead arc and the clubface is directed in the same direction as the clubhead path. Note that the back of the GFLW is directed towards the target and it is angled perpendicular to the clubhead arc at P7. Therefore, if the peripheral clubshaft just above the hosel rotates 10 degrees counterclockwise due to grip roll, then the clubface should close 10 degrees relative to the clubhead arc as it rotates around the hosel axis by 10 degrees.

Now, consider the scenario at P5. Note that the back of the GFLW is parallel to the clubhead arc (and not perpendicular to the clubhead arc) and that means that the clubface (which is parallel to the inclined plane) is facing a skywards direction that is angled roughly 90 degrees relative to the clubhead arc. Therefore, if the peripheral clubshaft just above the hosel rotates counterclockwise 10 degrees secondary to grip roll (due to a "reverse motorcycle move") then the clubface will close counterclockwise by 10 degrees relative to a plane that is perpendicular to the direction of the clubhead arc. I have no idea how that will translate to any measurement of clubface-closing that is relative to the clubhead arc (in the same direction as the clubhead arc) - especially considering the additional fact that the peripheral clubshaft is angled relative to the clubhead arc and it is not perfectly perpendicular to the clubhead arc.

Note that at every stage of the downswing between P5 and impact that the clubface is angled differently relative to the direction of the clubshead arc, which means that any 10 degrees of counterclockwise rotation of the clubface around the hosel of the peripheral clubshaft will result in a variable degree of clubface rotation relative to the clubhead arc.

Because of this complexity of "variability", I cannot imagine that one can expect to establish any well-defined causal relationship between the amount of grip roll happening at any time point of the downswing relative to the amount of clubface closure that is happening relative to the clubhead arc at that same downswing position.

I am now increasingly curious as to how GEARS defines the clubface closure relative to the clubhead arc at different time points of the downswing under these variable conditions. I noticed that the GEARS definition of clubface closure in this official link - redirect.viglink.com/?key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&u=https%3A//www.gearssports.com/gears-golf-club-ball-metrics/ - only refers to the time point just before impact.

Jeff.

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PS . Can't see the same 'clubface closure reduction' effect approaching impact in the following video especially  for Jonas Blixt. I needed to slow-mo the video and monitor the clubface closure measure from P6.5 ->P7 and didn't see any decrease in Grip Roll or Clubface Closure Rate. However, if JB's lead wrist is  moving in the extension direction approaching impact I could imagine that the 'rate of increase ' of Grip Roll might decrease because of Dr Mann's findings above.

I'm uncertain now how lead wrist extension will effect Grip Roll and Clubface Closure Rate because of the lead wrist being in ulnar deviation from P6.5 - P7 (it does seem too complex).




DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Oct 9, 2020 14:00:58 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

Jeff, you stated:

I think that it is entirely due to the fact that their lead forearm is still slightly pronated at impact, which means that they have not yet completed their release of PA#3 that allows the clubshaft to becomes perfectly straight-line-aligned with their lead upper arm at impact and that only happens by ~P7.1 when the intact LFFW again becomes an intact LAFW.

I understand the lead forearm could still be slightly pronated at impact with forward shaft lean, but wouldn’t the lead forearm still be less pronated or more supinated than it was at a neutral address?

UG

I don't have a scientifically conclusive answer because I do not have access to 3D data (other than Jon Rahm's 3D data) My visual impression when looking at 2D images is that golfers who use a bowed lead wrist technique have more lead forearm supination at impact than at address, but I am really guessing by looking at their lead lower radial bone and the position of their lead antecubital fossa at address and at impact. I cannot actually quantify the amount of lead forearm supination happening. It would be nice if Jon Sinclair's 3D data was freely available in the public sphere.

Jeff.