AMG - Clubshaft shallowing

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 24, 2023 9:23:17 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

Do you have a list of golfers who don't shallow the clubshaft between P4-P6? I know Phil Mickelson and Jamie Sadlowski don't (from your website) and maybe Adam Scott/DeChambeau.

DG

No. I have never made an attempt to compile that list.

I am personally open-minded about the issue of clubshaft shallowing and I don't have strong opinions on the issue. I think that it is an optional choice for golfers who want to hit the ball straight and far.

Adam Scott shallows his clubshaft by a typical amount for a pro golfer going from the TSP => elbow plane.





I can understand why many long-drive competitors do not shallow the clubshaft.

However, shallowing the clubshaft down to the elbow plane potentially allows a golfer to use the trail arm more efficiently - seeing that the trail arm can work very efficiently if its works in a "stone-skipping" manner to support the motion of the intact LFFW.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks again Dr Mann.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

I have noted that GolfWRX has a 14 page thread on the AMG clubshaft shallowing video.

I am amazed that I learned nothing useful from any person's posted comment, and many of the expressed opinions are either non-useful or nonsensical.

The most useful comment was made by FormerBigDaddy on page 6 of that thread.

forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1915874-new-amg-shallowing-video-wow/page/6/

He stated-: " Here’s a video of my son who’s 10. Perfect example of his lower body sequencing shallowing the club. I haven’t told him anything other than shift and turn back and shift and turn through. At some point he’s going to have to FEEL exactly what I mentioned above, slowing down is body and feeling his arms swing to start down to catch up with his body.

The kid doesn’t think about shallowing at all and has no idea what that even means. Much like any good player who learned to play early."

Here is a link to the 10-year old child's swing video - showing a superb driver golf swing action..

Here are capture images from that video.

That child has a superb golf swing action and he shallows the clubshaft perfectly even though he doesn't even know (according to his Dad) what the concept "clubshaft shallowing" even means.

His Dad states that he shallows the clubshaft as a result of a perfected lower body sequencing action. I agree that he has a perfect kinematic sequencing action of the pelvis/upper body, but I don't think that it is the major causal factor responsible for his excellent clubshaft shallowing motion.

I think that the major casual factor causing his efficient clubshaft shallowing action is the way he uses his trail upper limb.

Note that he has an excellent trail upper limb alignment at P4 (image 1) - his trail upper arm is abducted but his trail humerus is neutral, and not externally or internally rotated, and that allows his trail hand to be located in front of his upper torso. Note that he has a ~90 trail elbow bend.

By P5 (image 2) he has squared his pelvis as result of a superb pelvic rotary motion, but the major biomechanical factor responsible for his clubshaft shallowing action is that he has lowered his trail upper arm so that his trail elbow is just above his waist level by P5 and it is well below the level of his lead elbow. Secondly, when he performs his trail upper arm lowering action he is directing his trail upper arm towards his trail side shirt seam, which means that he is adducting his trail upper arm towards his shirt seam on the trail side of his mid-upper torso. The third factor is that he is retaining a ~90 degree trail elbow bend angle.

Note that there is no side-bending/tilt of the upper torso happening between P4 => P5.

At P6 (image 3) note that his trail forearm is horizontal to the ground. Note that his trail upper arm remains alongside his trail shirt seam all the way between P5 => P6 and he does not try and get his trail elbow in front of his trail hip area (like Dustin Johnson) which requires a small degree of external rotation of the trail humerus. His trail upper arm is still neutral at P6 (neither externally-or-internally rotated) and he still has a ~90 -100 degree trail elbow bend angle. Note how markedly supinated his trail forearm is at P6 and that allows his trail palm to be located under the club handle at P6 (as if he were performing a stone skipping action where the trail palm is facing skywards at P6).

Note that he develops a small degree of lateral bend of his trail side between P5 => P6 and that allows him to lower his trail shoulder. Note how his trail shoulder moves very efficiently downplane between P6 => P7, which allows him to avoid a "running-out-of-trail arm" scenario and it allows him to have a slightly bent trail elbow and a bent trail wrist at impact. Note how he keeps his trail forearm supinated during the "trail arm straightening action" that is happening between P6 => P7 and that allows him to keep his trail palm partially under the club handle at impact.

That's my "idea" of a perfect golf swing action!

I think that the best single overall swing thought that is useful when mentally preparing to perform an efficient clubshaft shallowing action is to think of the performing a "stone skipping action" with the trail arm (as described).

Jeff.

[playing18]

accidentally deleted this...

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 24, 2023 16:17:42 GMT -5 playing18 said:

Hi Dr. Mann, 

Youth is not wasted on the young. Nice swing analysis.

Here are few questions to answer/consider as we wait for the snow to melt.

1. How can a player stay on plane as he shallows the shaft. By definition, doesn't shallowing the club shaft cause a brief under-plane swing position from p4 to p5? Maintaining an intact flying wedge seems easy enough, but I'm confused about how a player can remain on plane and shallow at the same time, unless they are slightly over-plane and the shallowing brings them back on-plane.

2. You suggest that the kinematic sequence isn't a major factor involved in shallowing the shaft, while pitching the trail elbow is. What percent contribution would you estimate for the influence of pitching trail elbow on club shaft shallowing, 90%?

3. Isn't the problem with golf instructors stating that the face opens during shallowing more of an issue in how they define an "open face" as compared to how you define it? Isn't this a similar definition-of-terms issue when instructors say the club face is closed when a player bows the lead wrist during the backswing or downswing? 

4. I don't understand how rotating the pelvis promotes or facilitates spinal side bend. To me, it all comes down to the tilting of the pelvis. For example, an elevated trail-side pelvis promotes lead side-bending during the backswing while an elevated lead-side pelvis promotes trail side-bending during the downswing. I can't see how rotating a horizontal or level pelvis, regardless of how much it has rotated, has any positive promoting influence on spinal side-bending. Isn't it only helpful when the pelvis it tilted, which tilts the lumbar spine, which inherently promotes spinal side-bend. How can a horizontal pelvic rotation help with side-bending? 

5. I'm also not sure how any independent trail elbow pitching or any arm motion for that matter has a positive promoting influence on side bending. How can independent arm motion influence spinal motion?

6. It does seem logical that thoracic spinal side-bending, as Milo Lines suggests, could influence club shaft shallowing from p4 to p5. I'm still a little confused on how you define side bending compared to Milo, and you suggest that you can't see any side-bending from p4 to p5, but if a player did a little thoracic side-bending from p4 to p5 as the chest rotates couldn't this assist the trail elbow to pitch even more to increase club shaft shallowing?

7. And finally, what about the lowering effect of the squat move? Could this brief unweighted hip hinge phase conceivably make it easier to pitch the trail elbow due to the brief downward free-falling body momentum? 

Thanks for your expert opinion.

Jim - playing18

1. How can a player stay on plane as he shallows the shaft. By definition, doesn't shallowing the club shaft cause a brief under-plane swing position from p4 to p5? Maintaining an intact flying wedge seems easy enough, but I'm confused about how a player can remain on plane and shallow at the same time, unless they are slightly over-plane and the shallowing brings them back on-plane.

Clubshaft shallowing should not produce a brief underplance condition from P4 to P5 if it is performed correctly. That would only happen if the rate of lead forearm pronation happening between P4 => P5 is far in excess of the rate of lead hand lowering during the same time period. To stay continuously "on-plane" all the way between P4 => P6, the rate of lead forearm pronation must be perfectly balanced with respect to the rate of lead hand lowering during that P4 => P6 time period. I think that it is easier to control those two biomechanical lead arm/forearm events with the trail arm - by controlling the rate of trail arm lowering-and-adduction with the rate of trail forearm supination.

Try a simple experiment. Hold a flashlight in your right hand so that it points at the ball-target line at your simulated P4 position where the right arm/forearm and right wrist are held in a correct P4 positional alignment - like that 10 year-old child in my last post. Then, start lowering your right upper arm using a pitch elbow motion where the right elbow leads the right hand and direct your trail upper arm towards your right shirt seam as you simultaneously start to rotate your torso counterclockwise (like that 10 year-old child). Allow your right forearm to supinate as needed during the right arm lowering action. If you perform all those motions simultaneously and in the correct proportions you should easily be able to keep the flashlight pointing at the ball-target line during the entire P4 => P5.5 time period. 

You suggest that the kinematic sequence isn't a major factor involved in shallowing the shaft, while pitching the trail elbow is. What percent contribution would you estimate for the influence of pitching trail elbow on club shaft shallowing, 90%?

I cannot really understand this question in terms of percentages - so I will rephrase it in a way that I can understand. In what sense does the counterclockwise pelvis/torso motion affect the clubshaft shallowing motion being performed by the trail arm? It affects it in the sense that one cannot have the trail shoulder moving outwards in the direction of the ball-target line too fast due to an excessively fast rate of upper torso counterclockwise rotation between P4 => P5 because that would cause an OTT move.

Note that this golfer's upper torso is rotating counterclockwise between image 1 and image 2. During that same time period his trail hand is lowering and moving towards the ball-target line as a direct result of a trail arm lowering-adduction move using a pitch elbow motion. Those two independent biomechanical events have to be perfectly timed so that the two hands can be opposite the trail side of the sternum at P5 - as seen in image 2.

 Isn't the problem with golf instructors stating that the face opens during shallowing more of an issue in how they define an "open face" as compared to how you define it? Isn't this a similar definition-of-terms issue when instructors say the club face is closed when a player bows the lead wrist during the backswing or downswing? 

Yes. I think that many golf instructors look at the clubface and compare its face-direction relative to the ground. By contrast, I only use the term "open face" in a golfer, who uses the "intact LFFW/GFLW swing technique + "on-plane" clubshaft motion", to mean that the clubface is too open relative to the watchface area of the lead lower forearm.  

I don't understand how rotating the pelvis promotes or facilitates spinal side bend. To me, it all comes down to the tilting of the pelvis. For example, an elevated trail-side pelvis promotes lead side-bending during the backswing while an elevated lead-side pelvis promotes trail side-bending during the downswing. I can't see how rotating a horizontal or level pelvis, regardless of how much it has rotated, has any positive promoting influence on spinal side-bending. Isn't it only helpful when the pelvis it tilted, which tilts the lumbar spine, which inherently promotes spinal side-bend. How can a horizontal pelvic rotation help with side-bending? 

I agree with you and I cannot see how a horizontal pelvic motion can produce trail side bend between P4 => P5 unless the pelvis tilts due to a lot of left-lateral pelvic slide motion that causes the pelvis + lumbar spine to tilt to the right and produce secondary axis tilt. 

I'm also not sure how any independent trail elbow pitching or any arm motion for that matter has a positive promoting influence on side bending. How can independent arm motion influence spinal motion? 

I don't think that performing a stone-skipping motion with the trail arm causes side-bending in terms of a direct casual relationship. However, if one mentally pictures performing a stone-skipping right arm throw action so that a thrown stone will skip along the surface of a lake, wouldn't the stone thrower lower the right shoulder simultaneously by side-bending so that the right forearm can become more horizontal and lower to the ground during the later phase of the right arm "stone skipping" throw motion?

It does seem logical that thoracic spinal side-bending, as Milo Lines suggests, could influence club shaft shallowing from p4 to p5. I'm still a little confused on how you define side bending compared to Milo, and you suggest that you can't see any side-bending from p4 to p5, but if a player did a little thoracic side-bending from p4 to p5 as the chest rotates couldn't this assist the trail elbow to pitch even more to increase club shaft shallowing?

I think that thoracic side-bending between P4 => P5 would produce too much tilting of the torso to the right and lead to hanging-back.

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5 and image 3 is at P5.5.

Note that Dustin Johnson has no side-bending between P4 => P5 and it only happens between P5 => P5.5. However, look at how much his trail elbow has lowered between image 1 => image 2 and it has almost reached down to waist level by P5.

And finally, what about the lowering effect of the squat move? Could this brief unweighted hip hinge phase conceivably make it easier to pitch the trail elbow due to the brief downward free-falling body momentum? 

I cannot understand how it would affect the independent motion of the right arm in the right shoulder socket in a beneficial way.

Jeff.

[playing18]

Thanks for your response. We're a few hours closer to green grass.


8. Do you think a player who swings grossly OTT between p4 and p5 is worse off when he or she simultaneously shallows the club shaft? For example, does a shallowed shaft that is swung across the line put the club head in a position that makes it even harder or maybe impossible to make ball contact? Thus, is is counter-productive to advise a person who swing grossly OTT to swallow the club shaft? On the other hand, do you think it could help a player who swings just slightly OTT?

9. Why would a slight under-plane exaggeration be a problem for a player from p4 to p5, assuming there is only a minor steepening of the path after p5 with no problematic tumble? Could a slight under-plane exaggeration be helpful for those who wish to hit a draw?

10. Again, how much of club shaft shallowing do you think is due to pitching the trail elbow (from 0 to 100%)? You said the kinematic sequence is not a major factor. Does this mean you think it is a minor factor? What other non-major factors serve to shallow the club shaft?


11. Do you think instructor's wording of an open or closed club face (as they compare its face-direction relative to the ground) somehow hurts a student's understanding of what really matters and somehow might inhibit or slow the learning process? For example, could a student think it is necessary to roll the forearms actively as a way to correct an "open" club face, when in reality this is not necessary? Or, possible fix a slice by bowing the lead wrist to "close" the club face, when in reality this is not the best way to fix a slice?

12. As illustrated, DJ's pelvis moves from trail-side high to level or horizontal from p4 to p5. Wouldn't this change in pelvic orientation cause or promote the spine to initiate some degree of trail side-bend? Obviously, at p4, DJ's spine is in some lead side-bend. Wouldn't it make sense that from p4 to p5, DJ is simply moving from overt lead side-bend to neutral spine, which means that his spine is actually moving in the direction of trail side-bending during this time? I think this is the basis of Milo Line's logic. In addition, I think a similar response is driving the upper t-spine (rib cage) discussion. At p4, the t-spine is in upper spinal lead side-bend and then at p5 it has returned to neutral, which means it has also moved in the direction of upper spine trail side-bending from p4 to p5. To say trail side-bending doesn't occur until p5 does not seem logical or accurate. Don't you think trail side-bending is occurring, but that it's just not noticeable or overt until after p5? 

13. Isn't the squat move essentially what is done when skipping a stone as a way to lower the torso so it is more horizontal with the ground or lake? So in this way, doesn't the squat move make it easier to pitch the trail elbow?

Jim - playing18

[imperfectgolfer]

8. Do you think a player who swings grossly OTT between p4 and p5 is worse off when he or she simultaneously shallows the club shaft? For example, does a shallowed shaft that is swung across the line put the club head in a position that makes it even harder or maybe impossible to make ball contact? Thus, is is counter-productive to advise a person who swing grossly OTT to swallow the club shaft? On the other hand, do you think it could help a player who swings just slightly OTT?

Yes. If one is already in the process of performing an OTT move, one cannot rescue the situation by trying to shallow the clubshaft. However, from a golf instructional perspective, one would instruct that OTT-golfer to change his kinematic sequence so that he can then perform a clubshaft shallowing move in synchrony with an optimised kinematic sequence.

9. Why would a slight under-plane exaggeration be a problem for a player from p4 to p5, assuming there is only a minor steepening of the path after p5 with no problematic tumble? Could a slight under-plane exaggeration be helpful for those who wish to hit a draw?

It is OK to be temporarily underplance between P4 => P5, because one can then get back on-plane between P5 => P6. Sergio Gracia manifests that pattern.

Being slightly underplane at P6 can be useful for a golfer who wants to generate an in-to-out clubhead path and thereby hit a push-draw ball flight.

10. Again, how much of club shaft shallowing do you think is due to pitching the trail elbow (from 0 to 100%)? You said the kinematic sequence is not a major factor. Does this mean you think it is a minor factor? What other non-major factors serve to shallow the club shaft?

I think that the execution of a clubshaft shallowing action is entirely due to an arm action. However, the two shoulder sockets have to be correctly aligned during the clubshaft shallowing process that happens between P4 => P6. The trail shoulder socket must be getting lower than the lead shoulder socket. If the trail shoulder socket remains higher than the lead shoulder socket all the way to P6, then it is biomechanically impossible for the arms to move correctly.

Note how DJ's trail shoulder socket is dropping between P5 => P5.5. If it remained higher than the lead shoulder socket, then he could not continue to perform a "stone skipping" action with his trail arm.

Do you think instructor's wording of an open or closed club face (as they compare its face-direction relative to the ground) somehow hurts a student's understanding of what really matters and somehow might inhibit or slow the learning process? For example, could a student think it is necessary to roll the forearms actively as a way to correct an "open" club face, when in reality this is not necessary? Or, possible fix a slice by bowing the lead wrist to "close" the club face, when in reality this is not the best way to fix a slice?

If a golfer (who uses a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip strength) uses an intact LFFW/GFLW swing technique and shallows the clubshaft to the hand plane (rather than the elbow plane) by P5.5,  that means that his lead forearm must be more pronated at P5.5. From that shallower P5.5 position, he will need to use more lead forearm supination during his PA#3 release action to get the clubface square by impact.

I think that the reverse motorcycle move is of no intrinsic value and should not be used as a "band-aid" move to correct a slice problem.

12. As illustrated, DJ's pelvis moves from trail-side high to level or horizontal from p4 to p5. Wouldn't this change in pelvic orientation cause or promote the spine to initiate some degree of trail side-bend? Obviously, at p4, DJ's spine is in some lead side-bend. Wouldn't it make sense that from p4 to p5, DJ is simply moving from overt lead side-bend to neutral spine, which means that his spine is actually moving in the direction of trail side-bending during this time? I think this is the basis of Milo Line's logic. In addition, I think a similar response is driving the upper t-spine (rib cage) discussion. At p4, the t-spine is in upper spinal lead side-bend and then at p5 it has returned to neutral, which means it has also moved in the direction of upper spine trail side-bending from p4 to p5. To say trail side-bending doesn't occur until p5 does not seem logical or accurate. Don't you think trail side-bending is occurring, but that it's just not noticeable or overt until after p5?

The bold-highlighted comments does reflect Milo's thinking. However, I do not regard motion of the thoracic spine from being left-tilted => neutral as being a trail side-bending phenomenon even though it must happen before the trail side bending phenomenon can subsequently happen. Also, not every pro golfer's upper torso is so centralised at P4 that he has left-lateral tilt of his upper spine at P4.

Here is Viktor Hovland's golf swing action.

 

At P4 (image 1), his shoulders have rotated 110 degrees but he does not really have left-tilt of his thoracic spine - note that his head is vertically aligned over his trail foot.

There is no evidence that his spine is tilting away from the target between P4 (image 1) => P5 .2 (image 3) while his upper torso is rotating counterclockwise. I would assert that he is not manifesting any trail side-bend at that time point of his downswing.

However, he is definitely manifesting a lot of trail side-bend during his later downswing - see images 3, 4 and 5.

 

13. Isn't the squat move essentially what is done when skipping a stone as a way to lower the torso so it is more horizontal with the ground or lake? So in this way, doesn't the squat move make it easier to pitch the trail elbow?

It may happen, but it is perfectly acceptable for a stone-skipping thrower to lower-and-tilt the trail side of the mid-upper torso without performing a squat move.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Dr Phil Cheetham did post a graph of Chest/Thorax side bend on a you-tube video ( a screen print is below). I am assuming the graph and table originated from the AMM 3D database he used to capture Tour Pro kinematic data.



If you look at the table it says at the 'TOP' of the backswing, the average Chest/Thorax tilt is 36 degrees lead side.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 25, 2023 10:45:44 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

Dr Phil Cheetham did post a graph of Chest/Thorax side bend on a you-tube video ( a screen print is below). I am assuming the graph and table originated from the AMM 3D database he used to capture Tour Pro kinematic data.



If you look at the table it says at the 'TOP' of the backswing, the average Chest/Thorax tilt is 36 degrees lead side.

DG

Isn't this a measurement of chest side-bend in the sagittal plane?

I am talking about upper torso side-bend tilt in the coronal plane.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

This does seem to be tilt in the coronal plane . When I looked at this other video below at 11:07 he has database stats (ie. for Pro 2) with Thorax Bend (front-back) and Thorax Side Bend (Trail-Lead).



He's changed the titles to Chest Side Bend because not many people understand what the word Thorax means.

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Jan 25, 2023 11:45:27 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

This does seem to be tilt in the coronal plane . When I looked at this other video below at 11:07 he has database stats (ie. for Pro 2) with Thorax Bend (front-back) and Thorax Side Bend (Trail-Lead).



He's changed the titles to Chest Side Bend because not many people understand what the word Thorax means.

DG

I watched the video but I never saw PC define how he measures chest side-bend. If he measures it at a level that is above nipple level, then I can understand how he can get a leftwards bend measurement at P4 if the golfer rotates the shoulders 110 degrees by P4. If the shoulders rotate > 90 degrees it will torque the upper thoracic spine into a finite degree of leftwards bend even if the mid-lower thoracic spine is angled to the right.

So, consider Viktor Hovland at P4.

In image 2, I can see why a chest side-bend measurement could show a leftwards side-bend of the upper thoracic spine if the measurement is taken along a line that joins the two shoulder sockets. From my perspective, that merely reflects an arch-extension phenomenon of the upper thoracic spine relative to the mid-lower thoracic spine. I would label VH as being a rightwards-centralised upper torso loading pattern golfer because I am looking at his overall upper torso orientation by drawing an imaginary line between his T1 vertebra => L5 vertebra and it is overtly rightwards tilted.

If the upper thoracic spine becomes less leftwards-tilted relative to the lower thoracic spine between P4 => P4.5 as result of the shoulders rotating counterclockwise thereby decreasing the amount of arch-extension, I do not regard that change as being equivalent to a right lateral bend phenomenon. 

Here are back view images of Dustin Johnson.

At P4 (image 1) I can understand why PC could get a leftwards side-bend measurement because DJ is performing an arch-extension maneuver that is torquing his upper thoracic spine leftwards relative to his lower thoracic spine. 

Note that his upper thoracic spine's leftwards side-bend relative to his lower thoracic spine is decreasing between P4 => P5, but I do not regard that as being a right lateral side-bend phenomenon because his lower thoracic spine is not bending to the right. I think that right lateral bending of the lower thoracic spine only starts to happen between P5 => P5.5. I do not think of a decrease in the amount of arch-extension happening between image 1 => image 3 as being equivalent to a right lateral side-bending phenomenon.

Jeff.

[playing18]

14. Respectfully, I don't agree with your response regarding the Phil Cheetham's data and I don't agree with your swing examples. If the Cheetham data are accurate on the downswing, then they are accurate on the backswing. It is measured in the same way on both the back- and downswing, so why wouldn't it represent accurate side-bend data? 

In an online lesson I had from Milo Lines, he said my lateral side-bend was reversed at p4 with the shoulders too level, leading to a host of problems, one of which was the problem of hanging back. In other words, I had trail side-bend and not lead side-bend at p4. Of course, I was totally oblivious of this problem and completely surprised by Milo's analysis. In asking you about this the past two days in the forum, it has helped me understand this even better and why I have had chronic hanging back issues. For years, I have been starting my downswing side-bend from a significant "head-start" position, leading to too much trail side bend at p5. Since Milo's lesson, I have worked hard to change this early backswing trail side-bending fault. I finally made progress when I increased trail-side pelvic elevation/tilting by straightening my trail knee/leg in the late backswing. Now, I can feel the distinct difference between my old faulty backswing side-bending motion (trail-side) versus the correct version (lead-side). I had to eat some humble pie, join Milo's website, submit a video of my swing, and wait for the analysis. The next day he said my backswing side-bend was incorrect (or basically said my swing sucked, as nice as he could). Since early October, I've tried to understand this better. Finally, I think I do. It is clear to me that Cheetham's data are accurate. The spine moves into lead side-bend during the backswing up to p4 and then immediately begins to move into trail side-bend from p4 to p5 and beyond. It is clear that lead side-bend begins immediately at p4 and not at p5. The spine is not neutral at p4 with no side-bend, rather it is in lead side-bend at p4 and must begin to unwind immediately, similar to any dynamic body motion or any stretch-release mechanism. It is confusing because side-bend is neutral around p5, and it looks like it starts there, but this isn't true. Rather, p5 is simply the point when trail side-bend recovers (catches up) from the preceding backswing lead side-bend and then moves into even more trail side-bend. Spine motion, as we know, is an essential part of the swing, and with this new understanding, it represents an even more dynamic and essential status. Correct side-bending during the backswing is all about correct spinal motion. I was forever screwed without knowing this and without correcting this in my swing. Interestingly, Milo can spot it easily, as he did with me, and says he sees it often on the lesson tee. Apparently, it is a common and hidden problem.

However, a player still has to dig it out of the dirt, as Hogan said. For example, it doesn't work for me to do a simple lead side-bend motion in the backswing. This never quite sticks. I have to do it as a consequence of tilting my trail pelvis with a straight trail knee/leg in the later backswing. I don't know exactly why, but I can attest to the fact that the pelvis tilt governs spinal side-bend in both the backswing and downswing.

It might be hard to detect proper backswing side-bend visually, but the data and logic tells us otherwise. Do you think PC's data somehow represents a different definition of side-bend on the backswing and downswing/finish? 

15. I wonder how many golfers have OTT issues because of incorrect trail side-bend in the backswing. Do you agree that trail side-bending (shoulders more level to the ground) during the backswing could exacerbate the OTT fault with a shallowing influence (level shoulders) requiring a steepening influence (early OTT shoulder round-housing)?

16. Do you agree that excessive trail side-bending from p4 to p5 leads to the hanging back fault? Do you think this is why instructors tell students to make sure the lead shoulder doesn't pop up or elevate from p4 to p5?

17. Do you agree that some players use excessive trail side-bending to incorrectly shallow the club shaft instead of using the independent trail elbow pitch motion? What shallowing instructional tip do you think is the worst and the most commonly taught?

18. Can you think of any reason why modest backswing lead side-bending would be contraindicated in the golf swing?

19. Yes, it is perfectly acceptable for a stone-skipping thrower to lower-and-tilt the trail side of the mid-upper torso without performing a squat move...but does the squat move help when skipping a stone? Doesn't the squat move or hip hinge bring the torso even more level with the ground which promotes the trail elbow pitch and position the trail forearm more level to the ground?

More snow today, but a few hours closer to the big melt.

Jim - playing18

[imperfectgolfer]

Jim,

You wrote-: "In an online lesson I had from Milo Lines, he said my lateral side-bend was reversed at p4 with the shoulders too level, leading to a host of problems, one of which was the problem of hanging back. In other words, I had trail side-bend and not lead side-bend at p4. Of course, I was totally oblivious of this problem and completely surprised by Milo's analysis. In asking you about this the past two days in the forum, it has helped me understand this even better and why I have had chronic hanging back issues. For years, I have been starting my downswing side-bend from a significant "head-start" position, leading to too much trail side bend at p5. Since Milo's lesson, I have worked hard to change this early backswing trail side-bending fault. I finally made progress when I increased trail-side pelvic elevation/tilting by straightening my trail knee/leg in the late backswing. Now, I can feel the distinct difference between my old faulty backswing side-bending motion (trail-side) versus the correct version (lead-side). I had to eat some humble pie, join Milo's website, submit a video of my swing, and wait for the analysis. The next day he said my backswing side-bend was incorrect (or basically said my swing sucked, as nice as he could). Since early October, I've tried to understand this better. Finally, I think I do. It is clear to me that Cheetham's data are accurate. The spine moves into lead side-bend during the backswing up to p4 and then immediately begins to move into trail side-bend from p4 to p5 and beyond. It is clear that lead side-bend begins immediately at p4 and not at p5. The spine is not neutral at p4 with no side-bend, rather it is in lead side-bend at p4 and must begin to unwind immediately, similar to any dynamic body motion or any stretch-release mechanism. It is confusing because side-bend is neutral around p5, and it looks like it starts there, but this isn't true. Rather, p5 is simply the point when trail side-bend recovers (catches up) from the preceding backswing lead side-bend and then moves into even more trail side-bend. Spine motion, as we know, is an essential part of the swing, and with this new understanding, it represents an even more dynamic and essential status. Correct side-bending during the backswing is all about correct spinal motion. I was forever screwed without knowing this and without correcting this in my swing. Interestingly, Milo can spot it easily, as he did with me, and says he sees it often on the lesson tee. Apparently, it is a common and hidden problem."

You are perfectly entitled to harbor those opinions. I simply disagree with them.

I have previously expressed my opinions in this thread - newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/990/meant-term-right-lateral-bend

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is a Milo Lines video.

www.instagram.com/reel/CnwufDIoUDN/?igshid=YWJhMjlhZTc%3D

He states that he is going from left bend to right bend.

What do you see that signifies a condition of left bend?

Also, he talks about wrinkles appearing on the right side of Tiger's mid-torso. What is he implying is the cause of those wrinkles appearing?

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

I did find something on Phil Cheethams website which I found confusing and doesn't make any sense to me (see the bold highlighted extract below).

www.philcheetham.com/analyzing-the-golf-swing-in-6-degrees-of-freedom-with-amm-6dof-systems/

"We use the term pelvis instead of hips and thorax instead of shoulders. Hips and shoulders can be confusing because it sounds like there are two of each of them, and there are. From my point of view the hip is a joint. It is where the thigh bone (femur) joins the pelvic bone (pelvis). The shoulder is also a joint (and a complex one at that). It is where the upper arm bone (humerus) joins the ribcage (thorax) and includes the shoulder blade (scapula). So I want to make it clear that we are not talking about the joints, we are talking about the body segments"

If he using the line across the shoulder joints (which can move independently of the thorax) as some sort of reference to measure side bend , then that seems incorrect. I can move my right shoulder joint down and my left shoulder joint up causing the line connection to tilt , but without any thorax bend.

I'll email him to try and get more info on how he measured 'Chest Side Bend' on AMM 3D.

DG