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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 14, 2023 16:42:06 GMT -5
This is my idea of a perfect pivot-driven golf swing action.
Jeff.
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Post by playing18 on Jul 20, 2023 12:19:46 GMT -5
Jeff,
You have adjusted your thinking of the relationship between the pivot and the arm swing the last several years. Before you accepted Hogan’s idea that the arms are “pivot-driven” and simply carried by the pivot with a “free ride.” Now you know this isn’t exactly correct, and that the arms play a more active role in the swing.
In this thread, you illustrate a nice pivot driven swing, yet a correct pivot without a correct arm swing is ineffective and a correct arm swing without a correct pivot is also futile.
Could you summarize what her arms must do to match up with a correct pivot?
Could Hogan’s idea inadvertently cause an OTT pull or under-plane push? If so, how? What must the arms/shoulder complex do to prevent a pull or push, assuming the pivot is correct?
Clearly, the pivot can influence the arm swing path and the arm swing path may influence the pivot indirectly. A good golf swing probably starts with a good pivot and is optimized with correct arm and wrist motion. How important is a more vertical shoulder tilt (more Ferris wheel) through impact? Can arms that swing more active and independent of the pivot, in a more U-shaped path, modify how much the shoulder tilt (Ferris wheel versus merry-go-round angle) is needed to achieve a correct hand arc path?
Do you believe right lateral spinal bend which is important in achieving a correct shoulder tilt angle from p4 to p8 occurs more passively or actively as the spine rotates into impact? In other words, does right lateral bend get a free ride (automatic expression) as a result of proper spinal rotation?
Thanks,
Jim playing18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 20, 2023 13:59:54 GMT -5
Jeff, You have adjusted your thinking of the relationship between the pivot and the arm swing the last several years. Before you accepted Hogan’s idea that the arms are “pivot-driven” and simply carried by the pivot with a “free ride.” Now you know this isn’t exactly correct, and that the arms play a more active role in the swing. In this thread, you illustrate a nice pivot driven swing, yet a correct pivot without a correct arm swing is ineffective and a correct arm swing without a correct pivot is also futile. Could you summarize what her arms must do to match up with a correct pivot? Could Hogan’s idea inadvertently cause an OTT pull or under-plane push? If so, how? What must the arms/shoulder complex do to prevent a pull or push, assuming the pivot is correct? Clearly, the pivot can influence the arm swing path and the arm swing path may influence the pivot indirectly. A good golf swing probably starts with a good pivot and is optimized with correct arm and wrist motion. How important is a more vertical shoulder tilt (more Ferris wheel) through impact? Can arms that swing more active and independent of the pivot, in a more U-shaped path, modify how much the shoulder tilt (Ferris wheel versus merry-go-round angle) is needed to achieve a correct hand arc path? Do you believe right lateral spinal bend which is important in achieving a correct shoulder tilt angle from p4 to p8 occurs more passively or actively as the spine rotates into impact? In other words, does right lateral bend get a free ride (automatic expression) as a result of proper spinal rotation? Thanks, Jim playing18 To answer your questions, consider these capture images of Cassandra Meyer's downswing action. Let's analyse what is happening between P4 (image 1) => P5.5 (image 4). Note that she generates a very large amount of torso-pelvic separation (static X-factor) at P4 (image 1).
Note that she does not use the re-centering move and early pelvic rotation (happening between P3.5 => P4) that is favored by Kwon, and she only starts to rotate her pelvis counterclockwise starting at P4. However, her counterclockwise pelvic rotation happens very fast and she has completed her hip-squaring phase before P4.5 (image 2). During that early downswing time period between P4 => P4.5, she has also started to rotate her upper torso counterclockwise, which causes her lead shoulder to move targetwards and that will pull the lead arm downwards-and-targetwards. Note that is actively adducting her trail upper arm between P4 => P4.5 and that phenomenon also helps to move her lead arm/hand downwards. Image 3 is at P5. Note that she has already fully adducted her trail upper arm against the trail side of her torso by P5, while she keeps her upper torso still closed (relative to the ball-target line). Note that her lead arm moves mainly downwards, and not too much outwards in the plane of lead arm adduction => abduction between P4 => P5. In other words, her lead arm is mainly moving downwards. Note that she has more lead arm abduction happening between P5 (image 3) and P5.5 (image 4) while her upper torso is simultaneously rotating counterclockwise very fast. That gets her hands nicely in front of her trail hip area (as viewed from DTL). During that time period she maintains a lot of her clubhead lag, which requires a well-executed pitch elbow motion of her trail arm that is combined with trail forearm supination, that allows for more clubshaft shallowing. Note that her trail shoulder is still higher than her lead shoulder at P5, and that it only starts to get lower than her lead shoulder by P5.5, which requires a finite amount of right lateral bend. However, most of right lateral bend happens between P6 => P7 as seen in the following capture images. Image 1 is at P6, image 2 is at P6.5 and image 3 is at P7. Note that she gets more right lateral bend during her late downswing. That is biomechanically possible because i) she continues to shift-rotate her pelvis actively between P6 => P7 while keeping her head back and while simultaneously ensuring that the pelvis still leads the upper torso from a counterclockwise rotational perspective. I believe that acquiring more right lateral bend is an active biomechanical phenomenon that happens while the pelvis/upper torso are both still actively rotating counterclockwise and it does not automatically happen as a "free-ride" phenomenon. It requires an inordinate degree of spinal flexibility to enact that large degree of right lateral bend as manifested by CM. It is not essential to have that large amount of right lateral bend, but it is very advantageous because it allows CM to keep her trail forearm moving near-horizontally between P6 => P7.4 while her trail shoulder continues to move downplane, and the combination of those two biomechanical phenomena is very conducive to a DH-hand release action through impact where she does not "run-out-of-trail arm" and where she maintains a bent trail elbow and bent trail wrist through impact. Does that adequately answer your questions?
Jeff.
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Post by playing18 on Jul 20, 2023 16:15:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the biomechanical summary of her downswing. I’m especially interested in the relationship between shoulder plane tilt angle and downward arm vertical motion from p4 to p6.
Both Cassandra Meyer and Sergio Garcia have a relatively flat or horizontal shoulder plane rotation angle whereas someone like Dustin Johnson has a much more vertical shoulder plane rotation angle. Does this change how vertical the arms need to descend or do all three golfers have a similar arm descent angle (U shape) but since CM and SG have more horizontal shoulders does the arm/hand path just look more vertical than DJ’s? In other words is the steepness of the U shape an optical illusion? Do you think the U shape arm/hand path is pretty much the same for every golfer regardless of the shoulder plane rotation angle?
How do you think open shoulders at impact (a more horizontal shoulder turn plane angle) could influence the U shaped downswing path? Do you think open shoulders at impact requires a steeper arm/hand path or does more forward shaft lean compensate for the more open shoulders at impact?
Do you think free riding arms tend to not swing downward enough, and be more likely to swing OTT?
Do you think active arms that don’t have enough U shape tend to swing OTT?
Do you think it’s easier to swing a short iron or driver along a U shape? Is there a unique U shape verticalness for every club?
Isn’t the Justin Rose drill about promoting a U shape arm/hand swing path with a more horizontal rotating body?
Thanks,
Jim playing18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 20, 2023 19:24:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the biomechanical summary of her downswing. I’m especially interested in the relationship between shoulder plane tilt angle and downward arm vertical motion from p4 to p6. Both Cassandra Meyer and Sergio Garcia have a relatively flat or horizontal shoulder plane rotation angle whereas someone like Dustin Johnson has a much more vertical shoulder plane rotation angle. Does this change how vertical the arms need to descend or do all three golfers have a similar arm descent angle (U shape) but since CM and SG have more horizontal shoulders does the arm/hand path just look more vertical than DJ’s? In other words is the steepness of the U shape an optical illusion? Do you think the U shape arm/hand path is pretty much the same for every golfer regardless of the shoulder plane rotation angle? How do you think open shoulders at impact (a more horizontal shoulder turn plane angle) could influence the U shaped downswing path? Do you think open shoulders at impact requires a steeper arm/hand path or does more forward shaft lean compensate for the more open shoulders at impact? Do you think free riding arms tend to not swing downward enough, and be more likely to swing OTT? Do you think active arms that don’t have enough U shape tend to swing OTT? Do you think it’s easier to swing a short iron or driver along a U shape? Is there a unique U shape verticalness for every club? Isn’t the Justin Rose drill about promoting a U shape arm/hand swing path with a more horizontal rotating body? Thanks, Jim playing18 Here are some answers to your questions.
I’m especially interested in the relationship between shoulder plane tilt angle and downward arm vertical motion from p4 to p6.
Both Cassandra Meyer and Sergio Garcia have a relatively flat or horizontal shoulder plane rotation angle whereas someone like Dustin Johnson has a much more vertical shoulder plane rotation angle. Does this change how vertical the arms need to descend or do all three golfers have a similar arm descent angle (U shape) but since CM and SG have more horizontal shoulders does the arm/hand path just look more vertical than DJ’s? In other words is the steepness of the U shape an optical illusion? Do you think the U shape arm/hand path is pretty much the same for every golfer regardless of the shoulder plane rotation angle?
In a pro golfer, the hands move vertically downwards a lot between P4 => P5.5 irrespective of the relative height of the trail shoulder at P4 and the downward motion of the hands is due to the independent motion of the two upper arms secondary to muscular contraction of the shoulder girdle muscles.
Consider Dustin Johnson's trail shoulder motion.
At P4 (image 1) he has a high trail shoulder that is partly due to having a more bent-over spinal bend inclination angle at address, but more significantly due to stretching-out of the trail-sided upper torso and elevation/retraction of the trail scapula that allows him to have "high hands" at P4.
Note how much his trail shoulder drops between P4 => P5 (image 3) while he performs an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver - and it is due to protraction and depression of the trail scapula combined with a "crunching-in" of his trail-sided rib cage. Note that he is not tilting his spine more to the right between P4 => P5. Cassandra M and Sergio do not have to perform those two biomechanical motions (that cause depression of the trail shoulder between P4 => P5) because their trail shoulder is not high at P4, but they do have the same pattern of arm-lowering motions secondary to a trail upper arm adduction maneuver.
How do you think open shoulders at impact (a more horizontal shoulder turn plane angle) could influence the U shaped downswing path? Do you think open shoulders at impact requires a steeper arm/hand path or does more forward shaft lean compensate for the more open shoulders at impact?
Having open shoulders at impact is due to a lot of upper torso rotation in the later downswing and it can be associated with a more merry-go-round pattern of shoulder motion between P5.5 => P7 (if there is little secondary axis tilt and no right lateral bend) or a more ferris-wheel pattern of shoulder motion (if a lot of secondary axis + right lateral bend is present). Because it happens after P5.5, it should not affect the U-shaped hand arc path that happens earlier between P4 => P5.5, where the arm motion is the major causal factor causing a steep hand arc path where the hands end up well outside the trail thigh at P5.5.
Do you think free riding arms tend to not swing downward enough, and be more likely to swing OTT?
Yes.
Do you think active arms that don’t have enough U shape tend to swing OTT?
Yes.
Do you think it’s easier to swing a short iron or driver along a U shape? Is there a unique U shape verticalness for every club?
To create a more U-shaped hand arc path, the golfer will have more rightwards torso tilt at address with the head closer to the trail foot. Then, the hands must be directed mainly downwards while the golfer ensures that he creates secondary axis tilt due to targetwards shift-rotation of the pelvis while the head is still kept far back (eg. still located vertically near the trail foot). To create a more V-shaped hand arc path, the golfer will have less rightwards spinal tilt at address so the head is more centralised, and he will allow his pelvis/upper torso to sway more targetwards during his arm-lowering action. A skilled golfer can presumably vary between those two extremes so that each club has the appropriately desirable hand arc path pattern.
Isn’t the Justin Rose drill about promoting a U shape arm/hand swing path with a more horizontal rotating body?
The Justin Rose drill promotes a more U-shaped hand arc path between P4 => P5.5, but the upper torso's rotational angle can vary between P5.5 => P7 depending on the degree of secondary axis tilt combined with right lateral bend.
Jeff.
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Post by playing18 on Jul 21, 2023 11:53:14 GMT -5
You said: I believe that acquiring more right lateral bend is an active biomechanical phenomenon that happens while the pelvis/upper torso are both still actively rotating counterclockwise and it does not automatically happen as a "free-ride" phenomenon. It requires an inordinate degree of spinal flexibility to enact that large degree of right lateral bend as manifested by CM.
I agree that with a stiff spine a more active approach may be needed to acquire right lateral bend. However, in young supple players I think it is more automatic and happens without effort as the thoracic spine rotates properly. Gravity might also assist in the right bending maneuver. Doing right lateral bend early or without proper upper torso rotation would certainly be a more active undertaking.
You said: Note how much his trail shoulder drops between P4 => P5 (image 3) while he performs an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver - and it is due to protraction and depression of the trail scapula combined with a "crunching-in" of his trail-sided rib cage.
How is “crunching-in” the trail side rib cage not premature right lateral bending? Can the rib cage move or wiggle on its own without lateral spinal bending?
Do you think more open shoulders at impact requires more forward shaft lean to compensate for the lead shoulder that is open and probably farther from the ball? Also, wouldn’t someone with open shoulders have a more left moving hand path at impact, possibly promoting a fade with a driver swing?
You said: Having open shoulders at impact is due to a lot of upper torso rotation in the later downswing and it can be associated with a more merry-go-round pattern of shoulder motion between P5.5 => P7 (if there is little secondary axis tilt and no right lateral bend) or a more ferris-wheel pattern of shoulder motion (if a lot of secondary axis + right lateral bend is present).
Are there any other anatomical terms for secondary axis tilt? Is right or left spinal tilt the closest?
Would an OTT move be less common in a player who uses more secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend, all else equal? I assume yes. If so, how do these player avoid an OTT issue?
You said: To create a more U-shaped hand arc path, the golfer will have more rightwards torso tilt at address with the head closer to the trail foot. Then, the hands must be directed mainly downwards while the golfer ensures that he creates secondary axis tilt due to targetwards shift-rotation of the pelvis while the head is still kept far back (eg. still located vertically near the trail foot). To create a more V-shaped hand arc path, the golfer will have less rightwards spinal tilt at address so the head is more centralised, and he will allow his pelvis/upper torso to sway more targetwards during his arm-lowering action. A skilled golfer can presumably vary between those two extremes so that each club has the appropriately desirable hand arc path pattern.
Excellent explanation. So essentially the swing becomes more U shaped with a driver and more V shaped with a wedge?
Thanks,
Jim playing 18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 21, 2023 17:45:14 GMT -5
You said: Note how much his trail shoulder drops between P4 => P5 (image 3) while he performs an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver - and it is due to protraction and depression of the trail scapula combined with a "crunching-in" of his trail-sided rib cage.
How is “crunching-in” the trail side rib cage not premature right lateral bending? Can the rib cage move or wiggle on its own without lateral spinal bending?
Look at these back view images of Dustin Johnson Note that DJ looks "crunched-in" at P5 (image 4). However, note that his spine is not bending to the right and note that his right shoulder is not lower than his left shoulder so there is no "real" right lateral spinal bending present. It is also biomechanically difficult for him to acquire "real" right lateral bending of the spine when he has not yet acquired a significant amount of secondary axis tilt with his pelvis more rotated counterclockwise than his thorax.
Do you think more open shoulders at impact requires more forward shaft lean to compensate for the lead shoulder that is open and probably farther from the ball? Also, wouldn’t someone with open shoulders have a more left moving hand path at impact, possibly promoting a fade with a driver swing?If one has open shoulders at impact, it does not necessarily mean that one has forward shaft lean - especially if the upper torso is arched back with the head well behind the ball.
Open shoulders at impact also does not mean that a CP-arm release is happening. Here is Cameron Champ with open shoulders at impact and he is using a CF-arm release action. Are there any other anatomical terms for secondary axis tilt? Is right or left spinal tilt the closest? Secondary axis tilt exists when the lumbar spine is tilted to the right due to the pelvis shifting targetwards while the upper torso is kept back. Right lateral bend is present when the thoracic spine is tilted rightwards relative to the lumbar spine. Would an OTT move be less common in a player who uses more secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend, all else equal? I assume yes. If so, how do these player avoid an OTT issue? Yes, and it is due to the pelvis moving first in a shift-rotation manner that produces secondary axis tilt while the upper torso does not rotate prematurely in a counterclockwise manner that causes the spine to start tilting leftwards - as seen in this OTT demo-move by Russell Heritage. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 22, 2023 19:17:44 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Is the 'crunching' an anatomical equivalent of contracting the oblique abdominals as mentioned by Dr Greg Rose in the video below from 5:08 - 6:51 ?
There is a comment made on that you-tube video (below) and I'm wondering if it is anatomically correct?
"One added benefit of decreasing pelvic tilt approaching impact is that this extends your spine, increasing the distance between vertebrae. During side bend at impact, you jam your right side facets joints together causing right lower back pain, usually referred to as “SI joint pain”. Dumping the water backward essentially stretches your spine apart giving you more room to side bend without jamming facets into each other. A slow motion turn with and without losing pelvic tilt will demonstrate this plus the added ability to turn the hips further through impact."
DG
PS. I think the person who raised the comment should have said decreasing pelvis tilt causes the spine to flex not extend.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 24, 2023 16:42:21 GMT -5
Dr Mann Is the 'crunching' an anatomical equivalent of contracting the oblique abdominals as mentioned by Dr Greg Rose in the video below from 5:08 - 6:51 ? There is a comment made on that you-tube video (below) and I'm wondering if it is anatomically correct? "One added benefit of decreasing pelvic tilt approaching impact is that this extends your spine, increasing the distance between vertebrae. During side bend at impact, you jam your right side facets joints together causing right lower back pain, usually referred to as “SI joint pain”. Dumping the water backward essentially stretches your spine apart giving you more room to side bend without jamming facets into each other. A slow motion turn with and without losing pelvic tilt will demonstrate this plus the added ability to turn the hips further through impact." DG PS. I think the person who raised the comment should have said decreasing pelvis tilt causes the spine to flex not extend. Contracting the abdominal oblique muscles will allow a golfer to maintain, or increase, the spinal bend inclination angle, and it does not necessarily cause "crunching-in" of the right side of the thorax. However, if the golfer elevates the arms to a "high-hands" position at P4 causing the right-side of the rib cage to become extended, then it presumably contributes to the "crunching-in" of the right-side of the rib cage during the early downswing action. Regarding this comment-: " One added benefit of decreasing pelvic tilt approaching impact is that this extends your spine, increasing the distance between vertebrae. During side bend at impact, you jam your right side facets joints together causing right lower back pain, usually referred to as “SI joint pain”. Dumping the water backward essentially stretches your spine apart giving you more room to side bend without jamming facets into each other. A slow motion turn with and without losing pelvic tilt will demonstrate this plus the added ability to turn the hips further through impact." Right lateral bend only involves the thoracic spine and it should not cause lower back pain due to the lumbar facet joints becoming more squashed together. However, if the golfer tries to maintain anterior pelvic tilt into the later downswing/early followthrough when the upper torso rotates counterclockwise, the right-sided lumbar facet joints would presumably become more squashed together, and going into posterior pelvic tilt would seemingly be protective of the lumbar spine.
Look at how much Hogan rotates his pelvis/lumbar spine counterclockwise during his late downswing/early followthrough and he never apparently suffered from "low back pain" issues - and I suspect that being in posterior pelvic tilt was protective of his lumbar spine.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 24, 2023 18:50:01 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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