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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 15, 2023 5:59:05 GMT -5
Dr Mann
What are your impressions of this video concerning grip strength? Is a bowed weak/neutral lead wrist at impact a vulnerable position to place your wrist?
Addendum: When I look at the slow motion of Milo Lines swing, it looks like he has an intact GFLW/LFFW in the downswing through to P7.2. I cannot see any significant rotation of his upper left humerus compared to the supination of his forearm from P6.5-P7.2 but he is still achieving a DH hand release action.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 9:53:08 GMT -5
Dr Mann What are your impressions of this video concerning grip strength? Is a bowed weak/neutral lead wrist at impact a vulnerable position to place your wrist? Addendum: When I look at the slow motion of Milo Lines swing, it looks like he has an intact GFLW/LFFW in the downswing through to P7.2. I cannot see any significant rotation of his upper left humerus compared to the supination of his forearm from P6.5-P7.2 but he is still achieving a DH hand release action. DG I think that Milo's opinion that using a weak lead wrist predisposes to wrist injury is meritless - I know of no scientific reasoning/evidence to support his biased opinion. I also disagree with their opinion that a golfer has to use the bowed lead wrist technique - like Jon Rahm and Collin Morikawa - if one chooses to use a lead wrist at address. Here are two pro golfers who use a weak lead hand grip, and who use the non-bowed lead wrist technique (intact LFFW technique) into impact and through impact. Justin Thomas Scottie Scheffler You stated-: " When I look at the slow motion of Milo Lines swing, it looks like he has an intact GFLW/LFFW in the downswing through to P7.2. I cannot see any significant rotation of his upper left humerus compared to the supination of his forearm from P6.5-P7.2 but he is still achieving a DH hand release action." I do not perceive that Milo is using the intact LFFW technique because he uses a very strong lead hand grip. I also do not see him supinating his lead forearm between P6.5 - P7.2 and I believe that most of the counterclockwise rotation of the lead hand post-impact is due to external rotation of the lead humerus - see the 9:24 - 9:25 minute time point of the video. Here are capture images of Milo's DH-hand release action I can see the back of his lead hand rotating counterclockwise between P6.5 (image 2) => P7.4 (image 4) and it looks like it is mainly due to external rotation of his lead humerus (look at his lead antecubital fossa or his lead olecranon) and I cannot see his lead lower forearm's lower radial bone rotating more counterclockwise relative to his lead antecubital fossa. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 10:11:47 GMT -5
Dr Mann
"I do not perceive that Milo is using the intact LFFW technique because he uses a very strong lead hand grip."
Again , we have some confusion here because I thought a strong lead hand grip cannot apply to an intact GFLW/LAFW, but can apply to a GFLW/LFFW.
Doesn't his use of that 'hanger aid' prove he had an intact GFLW/LFFW during the downswing?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 10:26:47 GMT -5
Dr Mann "I do not perceive that Milo is using the intact LFFW technique because he uses a very strong lead hand grip." Again , we have some confusion here because I thought a strong lead hand grip cannot apply to an intact GFLW/LAFW, but can apply to a GFLW/LFFW. Doesn't his use of that 'hanger aid' prove he had an intact GFLW/LFFW during the downswing? DG No. If a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip comes into impact with the back of his lead hand facing the ball-target line, but with his lead arm near-vertical, then his lead wrist will be more bent in the plane of lead wrist hinging and his clubshaft is not straight-in-line with his lead forearm (in the plane of lead wrist cocking) at impact. or If a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip comes into impact with the back of his lead hand facing the ball-target line, but with his lead arm outstreteched (like Ryan Palmer), then his lead wrist will be more bowed in the plane of lead wrist hinging and his clubshaft is not straight-in-line with his lead forearm (in the plane of lead wrist cocking) at impact. That's why I personally do not think that the intact LFFW concept is useful in golfers who use a very strong lead hand grip. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 17:41:39 GMT -5
Dr Mann This is how I mentally perceived Viktor Hovland's intact LFFW with his moderately strong lead grip. From images 1-9, I thought he was still rotating that intact LFFW all the way to P7.2 (image 9 - just post impact). But I'm wrong because the 3D graph of VH's lead wrist flexion-extension (green graph below) shows that he is extending his lead wrist (while ulnar deviating) approaching impact. Therefore, you are correct that he cannot be swinging with an intact LFFW. DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 17, 2023 7:58:41 GMT -5
Dr Mann Going back to Milo Lines swing where you said : "I also do not see him supinating his lead forearm between P6.5 - P7.2 and I believe that most of the counterclockwise rotation of the lead hand post-impact is due to external rotation of the lead humerus - see the 9:24 - 9:25 minute time point of the video" I can't easily see what you are referring to at the 9:24-9.25 time point . But if you look at ML's swing (from a front viewpoint) between 0.07 -0.11 , I cannot see his left humerus rotating by any significant amount. Here are some frame images below. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 17, 2023 15:36:21 GMT -5
Dr Mann Going back to Milo Lines swing where you said : "I also do not see him supinating his lead forearm between P6.5 - P7.2 and I believe that most of the counterclockwise rotation of the lead hand post-impact is due to external rotation of the lead humerus - see the 9:24 - 9:25 minute time point of the video" I can't easily see what you are referring to at the 9:24-9.25 time point . But if you look at ML's swing (from a front viewpoint) between 0.07 -0.11 , I cannot see his left humerus rotating by any significant amount. Here are some frame images below. DG I also do not see any significant amount of external rotation of the lead humerus pre-impact, but I do believe that it is happening between P7 => P7.5.
How about presenting more images from the P7 => P7.5 time period? Here are capture images from the 9:24 - 9:25 minute time point of the ML video. I think that his lead humerus is rotating counterclockwise between image 1 => image 2.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 17, 2023 15:50:15 GMT -5
Dr Mann This is how I mentally perceived Viktor Hovland's intact LFFW with his moderately strong lead grip. From images 1-9, I thought he was still rotating that intact LFFW all the way to P7.2 (image 9 - just post impact). But I'm wrong because the 3D graph of VH's lead wrist flexion-extension (green graph below) shows that he is extending his lead wrist (while ulnar deviating) approaching impact. Therefore, you are correct that he cannot be swinging with an intact LFFW. DG I cannot understand your reasoning.
You state that you can see an intact LFFW alignment in those pre-impact images (and I agree with your assessment), but then you state that his lead wrist is moving towards extension (actually less bowing) near impact, which you consequently believe excludes an intact LFFW alignment between P6.8 => ~P7.4.
Why?
If the lead wrist is moving towards being less flexed between P6.5 => P7, that may decrease the amount of forward shaft lean and change the dynamic loft of the clubface, but why should it make an intact LFFW alignment between P6.8 => P7.4 impossible?
Here are capture images of VH's DH-hand release action post-impact.
I have drawn a red line along his lead lower forearm's radial bone and a blue line along his proximal clubshaft - and they are straight-line-aligned suggesting that he has an intact LFFW between P7 (image 1) and P7.5 (image 5) even if his lead wrist is slightly more extended at P7.5 compared to P7.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 17, 2023 17:37:45 GMT -5
Dr Mann I'm only using the strict definition of an intact GFLW/LFFW which means that if the wrist is flexed or bowed, the club shaft line cannot intersect with the forearm line and form a wedge plane. Do these images below make sense to you, especially the bottom right image where I've had to draw an imaginary clubface for a strong grip? In that image you can see the intact LFFW being the connected 'yellow /red /purple lines'. But that wedge plane cannot be formed if the lead wrist goes into extension or flexion approaching impact . Obviously , if we disregard the exactness of the definition of an intact LFFW , then small flexion/extension of the wrist might not make much of a difference to the relative intactness of the wedge. Note : I'm assuming the red lead forearm line has to be aligned with the radial bone. DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 17, 2023 18:06:08 GMT -5
Dr Mann Going back to Milo Lines swing where you said : "I also do not see him supinating his lead forearm between P6.5 - P7.2 and I believe that most of the counterclockwise rotation of the lead hand post-impact is due to external rotation of the lead humerus - see the 9:24 - 9:25 minute time point of the video" I can't easily see what you are referring to at the 9:24-9.25 time point . But if you look at ML's swing (from a front viewpoint) between 0.07 -0.11 , I cannot see his left humerus rotating by any significant amount. Here are some frame images below. DG I also do not see any significant amount of external rotation of the lead humerus pre-impact, but I do believe that it is happening between P7 => P7.5.
How about presenting more images from the P7 => P7.5 time period? Here are capture images from the 9:24 - 9:25 minute time point of the ML video. I think that his lead humerus is rotating counterclockwise between image 1 => image 2.
Jeff.
Here are some more frame images post impact.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2023 7:17:16 GMT -5
Dr Mann I'm only using the strict definition of an intact GFLW/LFFW which means that if the wrist is flexed or bowed, the club shaft line cannot intersect with the forearm line and form a wedge plane. Do these images below make sense to you, especially the bottom right image where I've had to draw an imaginary clubface for a strong grip? In that image you can see the intact LFFW being the connected 'yellow /red /purple lines'. But that wedge plane cannot be formed if the lead wrist goes into extension or flexion approaching impact . Obviously , if we disregard the exactness of the definition of an intact LFFW , then small flexion/extension of the wrist might not make much of a difference to the relative intactness of the wedge. Note : I'm assuming the red lead forearm line has to be aligned with the radial bone. DG You are correct to state that having a bowed lead wrist where the clubshaft is angled away from the lead forearm is not compatible with a LFFW alignment. That applies to Viktor Hovland between P4 => P6 - as seen in the following capture images.
Note that his clubshaft is not straight-line-aligned with his lead lower forearm's radial bone at P5.5 (image 1).
However, note that the degree of clubshaft angulation relative to the lead forearm is decreasing by P6.2 (image 3). That makes sense because his 3D graph shows a rapidly decreasing amount of lead wrist flexion happening in his late dowswing.
Near impact and just after impact, he has a negligible amount of lead wrist flexion/extension present, and that allows him to have a straight-line-alignment between his clubshaft and his lead lower forearm's radial bone at impact and immediately post-impact - as seen in the following capture images.
Note that his lead wrist is not overtly bowed or cupped in images 1, 2 and 3.
Jeff.
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