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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 30, 2012 17:11:48 GMT -5
Consider this BM-video on Ernie Els hitting a shot that fades to the right. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17519-brian-manzella-golf-magazine-golf-com-front9-hold-like-ernie-els.htmlSo, what do you think that BM means by the term "holding it off"? Wulsy actually thought that the clubface is squared by impact by the ill-defined mechanism of "going normal" - although he presumably doesn't understand what biomechanical process is involved in "going normal" that would cause the clubface to become square by impact. Kevin Shields responded to Wulsy by stating-: "But you can do that and still have the face come in late." So, do you understand how a golfer causes the "face to come in late" from a biomechanical/mechanical perspective - considering that BM doesn't discuss how a golfer should perform a rotary motion of the clubface in the late downswing in his "new" release concept ("Ideas about the Release" video) and he doesn't discuss how a golfer should precisely time the release of the club to allow the clubhead to catch-up to the left arm by impact (or low point)? Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jul 30, 2012 18:54:48 GMT -5
Haven't looked at the video, but Ernie has become a roller due to his many years with Leadbetter/Robert Baker, so "holding off" the closing roll should result in a clubface that hasn't fully squared by impact.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 30, 2012 20:03:23 GMT -5
I disagree that Els is a roller. He uses a full-roll hand release action, and golfers who use that technique do not roll between P6.9 and P7.2. Here is an animated gif of Ernie Els swing action and he maintains a stable clubface throughout the immediate impact zone (defined as being between P6.9 and P7.1). Any roll-over occurs after P7.1 and that represents the start of the finish swivel action that is characteristic of golfers who use a full-roll hand release action. Finally, the roll-action doesn't occur pre-impact - it is a post-impact phenomenon. Any roll of the clubshaft (about its axis) pre-impact occurs due to the release of PA#3 and I don't believe that "holding-off" after impact should necessarily affect the completion of the release of PA#3. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 1, 2012 7:18:05 GMT -5
In the BM-forum thread Wulsy asked-: "Kevin, when you say face I assume you are differentiating between the face and the head deliberately?"
Kevin Shields then replied-: "I suppose, but if the face was neutral at certain points the head could just come in late and it would have the same effect."
Notice how unsure Kevin is about his opinion. He states that if the face was neutral at certain points, then the clubhead could come in late and that would result in the same effect.
I think that he is wrong for two reasons.
i) How can the face be neutral at certain points, and not other time points in the downswing? Which time points?
ii) If the clubhead comes in late, then the clubhead path could also be affected because the clubhead would be more up-plane at impact - and not only the clubface orientation angle (presuming that the clubface is neutral to the clubhead arc at the time point of impact) would be affected.
What amazes me about BM-groupies is that they think that they have superior knowledge (based on knowledge of the new ball flight laws, D-plane and Trackman readings) but they still cannot understand the biomechanics that underlie a common technique used by professional golfers who frequently use a "hold off" swing action. My brother is a 1-handicap golfer, and he has zero knowledge of the D-plane and he still believes in the old ball flight laws, but he can routinely hit a fade shot by "holding the club off" based on "feel".
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 1, 2012 19:25:37 GMT -5
This represents my opinion about how a golfer should hit a controlled fade shot to a hole location that is on the right side of the green - using a "holding-off technique". Presume that the green is 20 yards in width, and the hole is located 5 yards from the right edge of the green. Presume that one is hitting an 8-iron and that one is 150 yards from the hole. Presuming a level strike on the sweetspot, if the clubhead path is zeroed-out at impact, and the clubface is 2 degrees open to the clubhead path at impact, then the ball will start off 1.6 degrees right-of-the-target (~80% in the direction of the clubface). If the ball went straight it would land 4 yards right-of-the-target. However, the divergence of clubhead path-clubface orientation of 2 degrees will produce a tilt of the spin axis of approximately 4 degrees and that will cause the ball to curve further to the right by 4.2 yards by 150 yards (0.7 x 150 x 4). That means that the ball will likely land ~8 yards right-of-the-target. To land the ball near the hole one needs to aim 8 yards left-of-the-hole, which means that the aiming target must be 3 yards left of the center of the green. I believe that one should not delay the release of the club (release of PA#2) in order to get a clubshaft that hasn't caught up to the left arm by impact (as Kevin suggests), because that would limit swing power and it is a mechanically unreliable technique. Presuming that a golfer is a swinger, how does one consistently delay the release of the club (release of PA#2) in order to get a 2 degrees open clubface at impact while simultaneously zero-outing the clubhead path at impact? I think that one should attempt to zero-out the clubhead path at impact (with reference to the target), and then try and ensure an open clubface of 2 degrees at impact by ensuring that one doesn't fully complete the release of PA#3 by impact. Normally, a swinger (like Ernie Els) would use a full-roll hand release action as can be seen in this upline series of capture images. At impact (image 2) the back of his FLW, and therefore clubface, faces the target. At impact, he stops supinating his left forearm and any continued roll of his FLW after impact is primarily due to external rotation of his left arm. If he allowed his left forearm to continue to supinate beyond impact, he would become a roller, and it is difficult to consistently control the clubface through impact using an unreliable roller-technique. Note that Ernie Els does not continue to supinate his left forearm in image 3. When using a "holding-off" swing action, Ernie Els would need to decrease the counterclockwise rotation of the left arm, as naturally happens in a full-roll hand release action. However, that would not affect ball flight if the "holding-off-action only happened after impact. It has to happen pre-impact, so that the clubface can be 2 degrees open at impact. I think that the most biomechanically natural method of performing a "holding-off" swing action that decreases the amount of roll-over through impact (between P6.7 and P7.3) is to isometrically contract the pronator muscles of the left forearm and thereby impede the degree of left forearm supination that occurs between P6.7 and P7. That biomechanical action should also be combined with isometric contraction of the internal rotators of the left humerus, thereby decreasing the amount of clubface rotation that happens between P7 and P7.5 - so that one is "holding-off" the rotation both pre-impact and post-impact. In other words, one is influencing the degree of rotation of the clubshaft-about-its-longitudinal axis through the impact zone - while still fully releasing PA#4 and PA#2. Jeff.
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