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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 30, 2012 12:17:35 GMT -5
Here is another example that clearly demonstrates that left forearm supination occurs in the late downswing. Alexander Noren swing video Here are capture images from the P6.1 and P6.9 positions. Image 1 is at the P6.1 position. Note that the radial border of his left lower forearm (red line) is inline with his left elbow pit (blue line) - which signifies a *neutral left forearm. (* I actually think that the left forearm may be slightly pronated at this time point because the red line looks like it is slightly rotated clockwise relative to the blue line, which explains why the back of his FLW appears to be rotated significantly more clockwise relative to his left elbow pit) Note that the back of his FLW is nearly parallel to the ball-target line. Image 2 is at the P6.9 postion. The back of his FLW must be nearly facing the target, which signifies a ~70-90 degree rotation of the FLW. Note that there is no change in the left elbow pit's orientation relative to the camera signifying that it has not rotated further (relative to image 1). Note how the radial border of his left lower forearm (red line) is rotated more counterclockwise than his left elbow pit (blue line), which means that he using a left forearm supinatory motion in his late downswing in order to square the clubface by impact. Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Nov 30, 2012 15:49:26 GMT -5
I just can't envision how you can keep the club on plane without using the extra degrees of freedom the left arm gives you by rotating independently.....even in the most "passive" release.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 30, 2012 17:27:44 GMT -5
Virtuoso - I agree with you 100%.
Tapio thinks that he can rotate the body/ arms as a single unit from P5.5 to P7 without any independent left forearm/arm motions. That may happen in his slow-mo demonstration, but I doubt that it happens in his "real life" swing. I would very much like to analyze a slo-mo video of his "real swing" to determine what is really happening between P6.5 and impact.
Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 1, 2012 14:00:58 GMT -5
Virtuoso - I agree with you 100%. Tapio thinks that he can rotate the body/ arms as a single unit from P5.5 to P7 without any independent left forearm/arm motions. That may happen in his slow-mo demonstration, but I doubt that it happens in his "real life" swing. I would very much like to analyze a slo-mo video of his "real swing" to determine what is really happening between P6.5 and impact. Jeff. Not like that Jeff. It really needs some forearm rotation... the direction just happens to be opposite than generally thought... and please stop talk about the plane. There is no plane, there is just two paths that cross each others and never move to the same direction. There is no plane where everything moves, just pure illusion and that makes it hard to understand how I can get it done without any forearm rotation of the forearm. BTW, Jeff... at that moment in AN:s pictures the hands are moving far left already and if you see the back of the left hand facing target there, we really need to stop this discussion. It has turned about 30-40 degrees between those two images... about same amount than the left deltoid.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 2, 2012 0:13:53 GMT -5
Tapio,
Based on your last post, I agree that we don't need to continue this discussion.
Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 3, 2012 4:51:04 GMT -5
Tapio, Based on your last post, I agree that we don't need to continue this discussion. Jeff. Yes. I got his swing in sync from 8 different angles and can say for sure you are totally wrong about that rotation of the left hand.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2012 11:55:30 GMT -5
Post videos showing that I am wrong about his FLW's orientation at the p6.9 position.
Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 3, 2012 12:04:53 GMT -5
LOL, I guess the conversation isn't over.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 4, 2012 2:39:01 GMT -5
Post videos showing that I am wrong about his FLW's orientation at the p6.9 position. Jeff. Jeff, even with small understanding of geometry one should understand right away that his back of the left hand can never be even close to the target at the second image. I tell you it would mean about 40 degrees closed face And the point you are still missing in every analyze you make is that there is no plane and nothing moves on it. You are missing top down view and by that what really happens to the arm at that moment. Even thinking about forearm rotation would make him hit it to the ground or his left foot. It's funny that people who have spent thousands of hours looking at the swings cant understand that so simple basic thing.
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 4, 2012 11:24:16 GMT -5
Tapio, from p6 to p8, the movement of the longitudinal center of gravity of the club is not "planar"?
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 4, 2012 16:23:01 GMT -5
Tapio, from p6 to p8, the movement of the longitudinal center of gravity of the club is not "planar"? It's "planar" just from DTL view as the shaft stays pretty much at the same angle between those points... but... why to talk about center of gravity at all? Why not about what really happens and how is it possible that those both ends of the club are moving totally different directions when it looks like it moves on plane? What about to understand that when hands seems to move toward the target and ball around p6/p7, they don't move that way much? What about talking about the whole arm orientation between those two points? What happens if you turn that whole arm from top down view 90 degrees with club and add there forearm rotation? You know what happens? The ball jumps few meters to the left and rolls to the bushes... been there, done that, my friend... because I was teaching that for many years and really believed it should be done like that... damn... those wasted years... before seeing the light and understanding it has to be just opposite and those good shots back then was just good luck and I was late with that move ;D
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 4, 2012 17:32:32 GMT -5
Tapio,
I disagree that the clubface will face left if the FLW faces the target.
I also believe in planes.
Your last paragraph is simply an ad hominem insult, which is not tolerated in this forum. You will be immediately banned if you make another unnecessary ad hominem insult.
Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 4, 2012 18:31:55 GMT -5
Tapio, this might be ironic, but saying the club travels on a inclined plane through impact strengthens your argument that the hands should move up and to the left. It does not weaken your argument.
And, to be clear, I am not arguing (and nor do I take it that Jeff is arguing) that you must use a lot of left forearm supination to square the face. All I am arguing is that, because of the human anatomy, you must use more than zero, if you are approaching impact from a fully pronated position.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 4, 2012 22:59:38 GMT -5
Virtuoso,
Hopefully you agree that the hands only move up-and-inside after lowpoint, which is after impact. At impact, the left wrist will be slightly palmar flexed if there is forward shaft lean, and the back of the anatomically FLW will face the target if the clubface faces the target (presuming a neutral left hand grip).
Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 5, 2012 10:14:29 GMT -5
Tapio, I disagree that the clubface will face left if the FLW faces the target. I also believe in planes. Your last paragraph is simply an ad hominem insult, which is not tolerated in this forum. You will be immediately banned if you make another unnecessary ad hominem insult. Jeff. His hands are laterally about in same position relative to the ball at impact and setup, but more "in" at impact. His grip at setup is so that the back of the hand is turned about 30 degrees toward the camera (strong). Try yourself to keep that face square with those given positions and back of the left hand facing the target. And remember his left wrist is not much bowed also. Virtuoso: the left forearm is not very pronated at transition and not even after that. Bit pronated yes, but not much. Still look at this image and think what I'm saying. There is no need for supination if your hands stays at your right side. Closer they come to your sagittal plane "on plane", more you need to supinate to get the face square. That's all explained in my many videos. Shoulders rotate, deltoid turns even much more, whole arm can rotate and forearm with that, but supination is only when forearm rotates relative to the upper arm. Not a direction.
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