|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 9, 2012 12:27:13 GMT -5
I was away from home for 7 days and I could not respond comprehensively to Tapio's wrongheaded opinions regarding the FLW and planes - as I did not have access to my computer. I believe that a golfer needs to have a "functionally" FLW facing the target if one wants to hit the ball straight - because it will ensure that the clubface faces the target at impact. I also think that a golfer needs to have the clubshaft move on-plane on the surface of the inclined plane through the impact zone in order to generate a clubhead path arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line and where the clubhead path at impact is also square to the target at impact and this will ensure a straight ball flight (presuming a level strike on the clubface's sweetspot, which also faces the target at impact). I have discussed these issues in detail in this 28 minute U-stream video. www.ustream.tv/recorded/27607360Note that you will have to wait for an introductory ad (and another ad that appears at the 15 minute time-point) to be completed before you see my video, and you will have to click-out any pop-up ads that appear across the lower screen. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tapiosantala on Dec 10, 2012 11:29:28 GMT -5
I was away from home for 7 days and I could not respond comprehensively to Tapio's wrongheaded opinions regarding the FLW and planes - as I did not have access to my computer. I believe that a golfer needs to have a "functionally" FLW facing the target if one wants to hit the ball straight - because it will ensure that the clubface faces the target at impact. I also think that a golfer needs to have the clubshaft move on-plane on the surface of the inclined plane through the impact zone in order to generate a clubhead path arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line and where the clubhead path at impact is also square to the target at impact and this will ensure a straight ball flight (presuming a level strike on the clubface's sweetspot, which also faces the target at impact). I have discussed these issues in detail in this 28 minute U-stream video. www.ustream.tv/recorded/27607360Note that you will have to wait for an introductory ad (and another ad that appears at the 15 minute time-point) to be completed before you see my video, and you will have to click-out any pop-up ads that appear across the lower screen. Jeff. You got one big mistake there Jeff. If golfers back of the left hand is not facing target at setup but the club face is square. And most of the players got it pointing 20-40 degrees right at setup, so closing it that much would also close the face. That doesn't mean it can't, but the geometry behind it is much more complicated
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 11:44:52 GMT -5
Tapio,
You wrote-: "You got one big mistake there Jeff. If golfers back of the left hand is not facing target at setup but the club face is square. And most of the players got it pointing 20-40 degrees right at setup, so closing it that much would also close the face."
I clearly, and comprehensively, dealt with that issue in my video presentation when I described the biomechanics of a functionally-flat left wrist where the degree-of-cupping, and orientation angle-of-cupping, would differ depending on left hand grip strength, but where the functionally-flat left wrist would always face the target. I also described how a golfer must get back to the same degree of left forearm pronation at impact (as existed at address) - and the exact amount depends on the adopted left hand grip strength. I can only presume that you didn't bother to watch my video presentation.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tapiosantala on Dec 10, 2012 12:04:35 GMT -5
Tapio, You wrote-: " You got one big mistake there Jeff. If golfers back of the left hand is not facing target at setup but the club face is square. And most of the players got it pointing 20-40 degrees right at setup, so closing it that much would also close the face." I clearly, and comprehensively, dealt with that issue in my video presentation when I described the biomechanics of a functionally-flat left wrist where the degree-of-cupping, and orientation angle-of-cupping, would differ depending on left hand grip strength, but where the functionally-flat left wrist would always face the target. I also described how a golfer must get back to the same degree of left forearm pronation at impact (as existed at address) - and the exact amount depends on the adopted left hand grip strength. I can only presume that you didn't bother to watch my video presentation. Jeff. I will see it later, but you are wrong again with that pronation thing. Think more about it... open shoulders, bowed wrist, bent right wrist... the whole system is totally at different position and the club will meet the ball "later" by that. It will take some time still, but I'm sure you will understand it at the end. First of all start thinking everything from top down, not from traditional views. They just confuse us as they did for me about ten years
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 12:20:56 GMT -5
Tapio,
You wrote-: "Think more about it... open shoulders, bowed wrist, bent right wrist... the whole system is totally at different position and the club will meet the ball "later" by that."
I realize that the "whole system" is in a totally different position at impact (relative to address) and I have taken that fact into account when I state that a functionally-flat left wrist must face the target at impact. Open shoulders only changes the degree of left arm/forearm rotation that must be present at impact to ensure that the functionally-flat left wrist, and therefore clubface, faces the target at impact. The degree of left wrist bowing is taken into account in my description of a functionally-flat left wrist because it takes into account the degree of forward shaft lean that is present at impact. The degree of right wrist bend at impact has no relevance if it doesn't alter the biomechanics of having a functionally-flat left wrist at impact.
Regarding this comment - "It will take some time still, but I'm sure you will understand it at the end" - I am hoping that it will apply to you when you eventually understand the difference between a i) AFLW, a ii) GFLW and a iii) functionally-flat left wrist.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 10, 2012 14:25:29 GMT -5
Tapio -
Why do you assert that supination is not a direction? The use of the words "not a direction" relate back to the word supination.
Why do you assert that supination is relative only to the upper arm?
People don't understand your position because you are using our language differently than how we use our language. You need to define the term supination in detail. Most people would agree that supination has a directional component to it and such direction has nothing to do with the upper arm.
|
|
|
Post by tapiosantala on Dec 10, 2012 22:56:50 GMT -5
Tapio - Why do you assert that supination is not a direction? The use of the words "not a direction" relate back to the word supination. Why do you assert that supination is relative only to the upper arm? People don't understand your position because you are using our language differently than how we use our language. You need to define the term supination in detail. Most people would agree that supination has a directional component to it and such direction has nothing to do with the upper arm. Because it's not at all direction. It's orientation change relative to upper arm. But if that's the case like you said that people in your language understands it differently, I don't know how to help them as I have explained it so many times and also post so many videos about the medical definition about it. If they really think that it's supination whenever forearm rotates to that direction, I wonder if I really have to continue talking about biomechanics in any US forum. Supination is forearm rotation where whole forearm rotates relative to the upper arm, and it's produced actively by biceps brachii and supinator muscles, or passively so that those muscles get to the same orientation as in active move. All rotation of the lower forearm we can see from face on camera is not at all supination, even if that part seems to rotate relative to the upper arm. Also shortening of inside muscles of the forearm bows the wrist (palmar flexion) and because it's in angled position and wristbone moves forward by that it's easy to see it's rotating even if it doesn't, or at least not like in supination. It has been about two years now with this simple definition case that some people just cant understand and what it has made is that we have never gone through it to the point I saw the important one as I started that conversation. First we have to understand the difference between real supination and other things that rotate the forearm relative to the camera. Then we have to understand that Hogan used wrong term in 5L and really meant bowing the wrist instead of rolling it by forearm rotation. By that we can start to understand what really was the meaning of his grip change, not only weakening but also shortening the thumb and that combination with CW rotation of the right arm and keeping the right elbow "in" through the impact. Opening triangle all the way through as I describe it, meaning that elbow line points more to the right than shoulder line still way beyond the impact. Long story here but the real question is still out there and that's where I'd like to find the answer. What makes it so damn hard to keep that position through the impact??? I have seen pros who have tried to achieve it for years and they can't, even they know perfectly what they want to happen and they can show those positions so well without forces. Why their right elbow pops out anyway before impact and the elbow line points to the target at impact instead of 20 degrees to the right like Hogan and many other great... as they also got their shoulders about 20 degrees to the left, so there is something like 40 degrees difference in those lines. I got some ideas about that but I think it will take 2 or 3 more years to agree still about those basics before we see that part of conversation Edit: So the short answer to your question CW: People are just wrong and don't understand the real medical definition and get confused. It's not about language, it's about their general knowledge about terms as they have learned to use those wrong way. Look at all the instruction videos with words "Hogans supination" They all are showing how to bow your wrist and not how to roll your forearm. So one wrong use of that term has made people believe that's supination for 60 years now and it becomes about official truth after that. Remember how I learned that right term after using the wrong one for years
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 1:06:15 GMT -5
Tapio,
You wrote-: "All rotation of the lower forearm we can see from face on camera is not at all supination, even if that part seems to rotate relative to the upper arm."
What else can cause a counterclockwise rotation of the back of the left hand relative to the upper arm other than left forearm supination?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 1:25:20 GMT -5
Tapio, You wrote-: "All rotation of the lower forearm we can see from face on camera is not at all supination, even if that part seems to rotate relative to the upper arm." What else can cause a counterclockwise rotation of the back of the left hand relative to the upper arm other than left forearm supination? Jeff. Nothing, but pretty often there is no that kind of rotation as he whole arm rotates around the vertical axis to impact. It's pretty easy to see by watching the shaft and arm relation even the shortening distance between body and hands and club head is quite confusing. The basic geometry still stands. The real point is what has to happen in forearms, hands and wrists to be able to keep the shaft perpendicular to the target line longer, lets say about 10 inches before impact to 5-10 inches past impact. What happens after that doesn't matter and that should never been seen as the part of release. It's 100% clear that one can bring the club to impact that way if all other conditions are fitted to that. It's also 100% clear that there is opposite way to do it and all the gray area between those and tournaments can be won with all of those. Hmm.. maybe nothing is too strong... you made a great video about thing you called finger twisting as I use to say PF is closing the face. I think still it's PF when the fingers are already twisted around the shaft and te amount of closing is really much dependent of the grip angle. When that is fully understood we can get pretty close to Hogans secret and what kind of grip changes he made and why. He really understood the geometry... but not the definitions of wrist movements
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 10:18:42 GMT -5
Tapio,
You wrote-: "Nothing, but pretty often there is no that kind of rotation as he whole arm rotates around the vertical axis to impact."
I have never seen that happen between P6.5 and P7 in a golfer who uses a weak/neutral left hand grip where the left arm and left forearm is neutral at address (left elbow pit faces the ball-target line and the left thumb is roughly at the 12-12:30 o'clock position at address). Do you have a video example of that "whole arm rotating as an unit" phenomenon happening between P6.5 and P7?
Jeff.
p.s. Have you watched my video on the functionally-flat, AFLW and GFLW left wrist?
|
|
|
Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 10:27:18 GMT -5
Tapio, You wrote-: " Nothing, but pretty often there is no that kind of rotation as he whole arm rotates around the vertical axis to impact." I have never seen that happen between P6.5 and P7 in a golfer who uses a weak/neutral left hand grip where the left arm and left forearm is neutral at address (left elbow pit faces the ball-target line and the left thumb is roughly at the 12-12:30 o'clock position at address). Do you have a video example of that "whole arm rotating as an unit" phenomenon happening between P6.5 and P7? Jeff. p.s. Have you watched my video on the functionally-flat, AFLW and GFLW left wrist? Lot of videos but only in our system. This really should tell enough If the toe is pointing up at the first image and you drop it straight down and then turn the whole arm like in picture, face will be square.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 10:46:19 GMT -5
Tapio,
That may happen in a theoretical sense (where you first ulnar deviate the left wrist to get the left arm and clubshaft to become straight-in-line and then rotate the entire left arm and clubshaft as a single unit between P6 and P7) but I have never seen that happen in a "real life" golf swing. I repeat my request - do you have visual (video) evidence of it happening in a "real life" golf swing between P6.5 and P7 if the golfer has a weak/neutral left hand and neutral left arm at address?
It is my experience (based on viewing many swing videos - like John Oda's swing video) that professional golfers tend to limit the amount of external rotation of their left elbow pit between P6 and P7 when they keep their left arm closely applied to their upper chest wall, so that some of the counterclockwise rotation of their FLW between P6 and P7 is due to a left forearm supinatory motion, and that the counterclockwise rotation of their FLW is not solely due to a counterclockwise rotation of their left elbow pit (which reflects the combined influence of i) left shoulder socket rotation and ii) external rotation of the left humeral head within the left shoulder socket).
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 10:56:23 GMT -5
If I am ever in your area Tapio I am stopping by, your stuff looks pretty neat.
|
|
|
Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 11:23:01 GMT -5
Tapio, That may happen in a theoretical sense (where you first ulnar deviate the left wrist to get the left arm and clubshaft to become straight-in-line and then rotate the entire left arm and clubshaft as a single unit between P6 and P7) but I have never seen that happen in a "real life" golf swing. I repeat my request - do you have visual (video) evidence of it happening in a "real life" golf swing between P6.5 and P7 if the golfer has a weak/neutral left hand and neutral left arm at address? It is my experience (based on viewing many swing videos - like John Oda's swing video) that professional golfers tend to limit the amount of external rotation of their left elbow pit between P6 and P7 when they keep their left arm closely applied to their upper chest wall, so that some of the counterclockwise rotation of their FLW between P6 and P7 is due to a left forearm supinatory motion, and that the counterclockwise rotation of their FLW is not solely due to a counterclockwise rotation of their left elbow pit (which reflects the combined influence of i) left shoulder socket rotation and ii) external rotation of the left humeral head within the left shoulder socket). Jeff. Jeff, those all happen at the same time, but the result is of course same no matter in which order it happens. If all you said is done before impact, it's there. But even bit of lateral movement and it's lost. It have to be pure rotation ant "the corner" is still there and makes it happen also. That's why the right hand has to stay under and right elbow in. Those two prevents supination and face closing too much. It's CW twist that continues all the way through but the energy at the club overtakes it finally bit after impact. That's why it wasn't visible before high speed cameras as we used to see the moment when arms are crossing and right hand comes over the left. Watch few players and put special attention to their lower parts of the forearms. Guys who use this way got them apart of each other and they never meet each other.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 11:29:52 GMT -5
I disagree that the CW twist of the FLW occurs all the way between P6 and P7 - because that would cause the clubshaft to move over-the-plane. The counterclockwise twist of the FLW mainly happens between P6.7 and P7 (when the club has nearly completed its PA#2 release action)- as can be clearly seen in John Oda's swing video. I agree that optimal use of the right arm/hand during the late downswing can help prevent over-supination of the left forearm through the immediate impact zone. Jeff.
|
|