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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 24, 2012 9:26:06 GMT -5
See this BM-forum thread. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17761-congrats-david-toms-brian-manzella-great-plus-gainey-talk-2.htmlBM posted this photo. BM claims that TG is 25 degrees flipped. BM is totally misrepresenting reality by manufacturing those photos. Here is the unadorned reality. Here are capture images. TG has no evidence of flipping well beyond impact at the P7.3 position - image 3. The clubhead only passes his left arm at about P8. Flipping refers to the clubhead passing the left arm in the immediate impact zone - between P6.9 and P7.2. TG is a quintessential handle-dragger and he maintains a bent right wrist to well beyond impact. Note that TG maintains forward shaft lean (which means that his hands are ahead of the clubhead) to well beyond impact. Post-impact flipping between P7.5 and P8 is irrelevant, and BM is misrepresenting the "true reality" of TG's swing action. Is there no BM-groupie on the BM-forum who has the knowledge and temerity to question BM's BS-claim? I guess not! Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 24, 2012 10:26:26 GMT -5
Wulsy looked at the BM-photo of TG and stated-: " Looks like he gammas like crazy from that angle." BM denied that he gammed and he answered-: " That's 25° flipped." The reality is that TG did gamma the shaft (rotate the shaft about its longitudinal axis) between P7 and P8, but it happened after impact. Here are capture images from the slow-motion video of his hand action through impact. Image 1 is the P6 position and the back of TG's FLW is roughly parallel to the ball-target line. Image 2 is at ~P6.5 and the back of his FLW still faces the ball-target line. Image 3 is at (or near) impact and the back of his FLW is still facing the ball-target line and the ulnar border of his left hand faces the target and he doesn't supinate his left forearm -which means that he doesn't use any PA#3 release action (release swivel action) in his swing action, which is understandable because he uses a very strong (4-knuckle) left hand grip. So, there is no (or very little) gamma torque pre-impact in his downswing action. However, one can see his left forearm/FLW rotating counterclockwise post-impact - images 4 and 5 - and that means that he is applying some rotary torque to the grip end of the club which will rotate the clubface closed. However, that left forearm rotary phenomenon is happening post-impact. Wulsy (and all BM-groupies) would learn much more about golf swing mechanics if they studied slow motion videos using a swing analyser program - instead of starting threads that imply that video has no value in the evaluation of a golfer's swing action (see - www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17734-any-role-left-video.html ) Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Oct 24, 2012 11:13:43 GMT -5
What does he mean by the photo being 25* flipped?
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 24, 2012 13:19:18 GMT -5
3jack,
I presume that he means that the clubshaft is angled 25 degrees passed the left arm in the last photo of his composite photo (although it actually looks greater than 25 degrees in image 4 of my capture photo sequence).
Jeff.
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Post by burner on Oct 24, 2012 17:11:41 GMT -5
I think BM means that the pictures are flipped 25* so that we are looking more down on, than straight at, TG.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 25, 2012 0:19:07 GMT -5
Burner,
If you are correct in your assumption, how would that 25 degrees of flipping of the viewing angle of TG's arms/club be of value in demonstrating what is happening in reality? Does that series of photos show "something" that you cannot discern in the face-on photos that I have captured from those slow motion videos?
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Oct 25, 2012 10:10:00 GMT -5
I agree Jeff. I'm a little more suspicious of any validity if it was flipped via Photoshop manipulation. If it was a real camera of TG's swing and they showed it from a different angle, I could see some of Brian's point.
Last I checked, the crew over there was saying that handle dragging was determined by what the golfer was trying to do or feel like they were doing. So unless they changed their minds, again, on how to determine handle dragging; their notion is very faulty and un-scientific.
It was not too long ago that they were denouncing Boo Weekley as a ‘handle dragger who got hot for a few years and burned out.’ But, his metrics related to ballstriking (and putting and chipping) show a different story. Even this year where I have him in the top-10 in Driving Effectiveness, Safe Zone play (shots from 125-175 yards) and shots from 225-275 yards. Furthermore, he’s ranked 42nd in Danger Zone play (shots from 175-225 yards).
Part of the problem I see with their research is that they generally have no measurement to determine the quality of a golfer’s ballstriking of the Tour pros they examine.
By denouncing Boo’s ballstriking earlier this year and the objective metrics showing that he’s still one of the very best ballstrikers on Tour, one has to question their entire stance on handle dragging and if they have any way of accurately determining it.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 25, 2012 10:52:55 GMT -5
3jack,
You wrote-: "I agree Jeff. I'm a little more suspicious of any validity if it was flipped via Photoshop manipulation. If it was a real camera of TG's swing and they showed it from a different angle, I could see some of Brian's point."
If it was flipped via Photoshop, then we both agree that those selected capture images have no apparent value. However, if those photos actually represent a different viewing angle, then what do they show that is useful? What does it tell you about TG's swing biomechanics that cannot be obtained from my capture images from those face-on slow-motion videos?
I have no idea how they actually define handle-dragging, and I cannot fathom how they decide that TG is not actually a handle-dragger but only a "late liner-upper". They talk loosely about TG "lining the club up later". What does that statement really mean when TG obviously has forward shaft lean through impact and when he has an intact LAFW (shaft never flips beyond the left arm) between P7 and P7.3?
Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Oct 25, 2012 13:23:08 GMT -5
The only part I could agree if the flipped photo was an actual camera shown at a different angle is then I think one could argue that the one camera angle shows something different than the other camera angle. From there, the debate would be which camera angle is the best. I personally do not see how one cannot be suspicious of their handle dragging claims. They claimed that this was the reason why Boo Weekley didn't make the top-125 on the Money List in 2011 and were now proclaiming that they would rather hit the ball like Brandt Snedeker because Boo was 'handle dragging.' You don't have to be a statistical genius to go over to the PGA Tour's Web site and see the data for yourself. All I've done is assembled the data and get it to more accurately depict what influences the golfer's Adjusted Score. But, if you look at the driving metrics, Boo hits it longer, more accurately and preciesly off the tee than Snedeker does. You don't even need a formula to figure out that Boo is a far better driver of the ball than Snedeker and one of the best drivers of the ball on Tour. Regardless of their definition of handle dragging, they've attached a negative connotation to it nonetheless. And since they labeled Weekley as a handle dragger and made such goofy claims about his ballstriking when the ACTUAL performance data shows differently...any person with their head not in the sand has to question their claims. Furthermore, if they stick to these claims then it becomes more apparent that they will do whatever it takes to make it look like they are not wrong, like photoshopping a different angle of Gainey's swing. Ironically, Gainey has not struck the ball well this year. So maybe he's not handle dragging afterall 3JACK
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Post by burner on Oct 25, 2012 17:35:04 GMT -5
Burner, If you are correct in your assumption, how would that 25 degrees of flipping of the viewing angle of TG's arms/club be of value in demonstrating what is happening in reality? Does that series of photos show "something" that you cannot discern in the face-on photos that I have captured from those slow motion videos? Jeff. For an answer to that one, you would have to put the question to the "flipper".
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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 9, 2012 14:53:38 GMT -5
Tommy Gainey gets more shaft lean through impact than anyone on tour, at least that I have studied. He is the quintessential handle dragger in BM definition.
I also don't know about the context of the shot he chose but that slow mo video dispels the still photo's.
I hate when teachers play games using photo's, I saw a recent article about spine inclination taken at a 45 degree angle which of course is going to make the spine look like it leans left at the top.
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