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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 11:00:26 GMT -5
See this BM-forum thread - www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17889-derisable-bend-left-elbow-thro-impact-2.htmlcwdlaw2223 wrote-: "T he beauty of 1,000 micro moves and a release style that keeps changing (drive hold now doesn't mean driving your right hand against the shaft and holding the right wrist bend) is that everything is covered so they can't be wrong. At least one thing will always be right. Sort of like filling in A,B,C and D in a multiple choice exam.He is mocking the Jeffy/KM DHer release concept, but he is mixing up a TGM hitting concept with KM's DHer release concept. When did KM ever infer that a DHeR was applying a positive push-force against the aft side of the club to produce a DH-release action (as occurs in TGM hitters)? cwdlaw223 also wrote-: " Slight correction. Those guys haven't even figured out yet what force to apply against the shaft to support their "release" style. It's all a look. Just get a "solid" left wrist, rotate with your body and everything will become "stable." They don't see forces and torques in video so it must not be there!!!" His mocking tone is reflective of his character (and that type of mockery against a fellow forum member will not be tolerated in this forum), and it also only demonstrates his personal biases. It is true that KM has not explained the biomechanics of his DH-release action. However, KM/Jeffy are not inferring that torques/forces are not present because they are not visible in a swing video. If torques/forces are not visible in a swing video, then how does BM rationally conclude that Rory McIlroy and Lexi Thompson are releasing the club during phase 2 of the downswing via a push-force against the aft side of the club below the coupling point? Also, how does cwdlaw223 explain how long-drive competitors (like Sadlowski and Mazza) maintain an intact LAFW and functionally-flat left wrist for at least 12" after impact - when the clubhead speed at impact is 145+mph? Mazza's release action through impact. perfectgolfswingreview.net/MazzaFollowthrough.jpg [/img] In image 2, Mazza still has an intact LAFW and the clubshaft has not flipped passed his left arm. Do you really believe that it can happen using BM's piñata-release principle? Here is BM demonstrating his release-through-impact idea. That type of clubhead-release action produces post-impact flipping and it doesn't account for the fact that most professional golfers do not manifest post-impact flipping within 12-18" of impact. Here are two examples. Dustin Johnson - see image 2 Heath Slocum - see image 2 How does cwdlaw223 explain the maintenance of a FLW and intact LAFW well beyond impact? Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 10, 2012 11:21:14 GMT -5
I had always thought "drive-hold" was a noun and not a verb. I had thought it was a description of impact conditions of the hands and club shaft as it entered and exited the impact zone.
Seems like a straw man argument.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 10, 2012 11:38:48 GMT -5
Jeff, this is all about what I have said about the supination and that there is no need for that. Now we see every day good captures from high speed videos where we can see clearly that this arm rotation happens later and IMO it's much more passive reaction to the forces of the club. Look at Mazza's glove. To keep it that way between first two images, he has to use his muscles to rotate it open, not to close!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 12:00:04 GMT -5
Tapio, You are making a big mistake. Mazza uses a very strong left hand grip and he doesn't rotate his left arm around its longitudinal axis pre-impact because he doesn't use a PA#3 release action, and he also doesn't rotate his left arm around its longitudinal axis between P7 and P7.2. He only starts to supinate his left arm when he bypasses the P7.2 position because he then uses a full-roll hand release action. By contrast, Jamie Sadlowski (who also uses a very strong left hand grip and who also doesn't use a PA#3 release action pre-impact) doesn't use a full-roll hand release action after impact, and therefore his left wrist must bend after it bypasses the P7.2 position. Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 10, 2012 12:07:15 GMT -5
P7.2 got nothing to do with this. Other forces are already there at that point.
And I think whole PA#3 is very badly understood. Not too easy geometry. And you really should see more top down videos to understand it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 12:08:39 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "I had always thought "drive-hold" was a noun and not a verb."
I think that using "drive-hold" as a noun applies to KM's DHer release action. However, it is surely a verb in the context of a TGM hitting action or a John Erickson hitting action.
Using DH as a noun explains why Dustin Johnson and Heath Slocum can be perceived to be DHers - even though they use a full-roll hand release action.
Jeff.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 10, 2012 14:19:20 GMT -5
Jeff - You are correct in pointing out that Kelvin hasn't "... explained the biomechanics of his DH-release action." However, what is driving? what is holding? I believe that Kelvin has to answer those questions and as I believe you indicated in your quote above, he hasn't. I guess one could infer from Kelvin's article where he presents the drive/hold release the body is driving and the left arm is holding the club, but that isn't anything new. www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.htmlI believe that the only swing/release style that counts is the one someone can execute under pressure regardless if there is a swing/release style that is optimal for distance and accuracy. There is optimal and what one can execute. Huge difference!!!! Maybe Kelvin's "drive/hold" release is "optimal" for driving a golf ball where the golfer can generate over 130 mph in clubhead speed, use XXX flex shafts and 47" drivers. There's no evidence for such release being "optimal" for driving a golf ball other than deductive reasonsing from video. Furthermore, why not look at Jason Zubak as optimal? His post impact position is dynamic and he has won 5 long drive titles. 2:30-2:31 (see also 3:30 - best I could find quickly) I personally believe that trying to prove a pattern is optimal based upon a swing speed over 130 mph is ridiculous. You cannot teach this type of speed into people. (You could probably teach 110 mph into many golfers, 120+ in some and 125+ in very, very few IMO). How many guys on the PGA tour can generate over 130+ clubehad speed even once? Not many: www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02401 I am a forum member so I presume that you will not mock me or defame my character on this website. BTW - Brian focuses on handpath, torques and forces because that's what his scientists focus on. Not sure that anyone else is focusing on the torques and forces because they don't know the math and/or have the equipment to do so. How do they do this? I don't know. At some point I don't care how the clock is made and only want the time.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 15:06:05 GMT -5
cwdlaw223,
I will not mock you using ad hominem attacks seeing that you are now a forum member. However, I will relentlessly question the rationale/logic of your posts regarding golf swing mechanics/biomechanics.
It is true that KM has not described the biomechanics underlying the DH release action used by golfers like Dustin Johnson and Heath Slocum. But, neither has BM. Where is the "evidence" that they are using a RACP release action and/or a piñata-release action where the club flips soon after impact. They are actually using a DH-release action (used as a noun and not as a verb) and neither BM, or you, have explained the underlying biomechanics. How should a golfer maintain a FLW/intact LAFW through impact - as this is the release action used by the majority of professional, and skilled amateur, golfers?
Jeff.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 10, 2012 15:21:18 GMT -5
Jeff -
You asked me how should a golfer maintain a FLW/intact LAFW through impact - as this is the release action used by the majority of professional, and skilled amateur, golfers.
I never asserted that a golfer should or should not use such action. If this is your position then I believe that you are asserting the positive and therefore bear the burden of proof. I don't have an answer and take no position.
I don't post that many affirmatives when it comes to golf swing mechanics/biomechanics. (The debates are endless). In the end, I only focus on what I can do as opposed to some model no matter who created the model. I care about impact which is objective and I want an instructor that gives me better and more consistent club impact numbers and could care less how they get me there.
I believe the title of this post is excellent and demands an answer. The typical answer is just read the articles, however, as you've noticed, that isn't enough and it should be very easy to answer what's driving/holding.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 10, 2012 18:35:26 GMT -5
cwdlaw223
You wrote-: "I don't post that many affirmatives when it comes to golf swing mechanics/biomechanics. (The debates are endless). In the end, I only focus on what I can do as opposed to some model no matter who created the model. I care about impact which is objective and I want an instructor that gives me better and more consistent club impact numbers and could care less how they get me there."
I find your argument irrational/illogical. All good golfers want the same thing if they want to consistently hit the ball straight - good impact numbers (basically zeroing-out the clubhead path and clubface orientation angle at impact for a level strike on the sweetspot). However, it requires a certain combination of golf swing biomechanical movements to consistently achieve that goal, and you have to be trying to achieve that goal when you state "that you only focus on what you can do as opposed to some model". Whether you move your body/arms according to the fundamentals of some model pattern, or according to some practical advice received from a golf instructor, you are still trying to manifest a certain pattern of golf swing biomechanical actions that can create good impact numbers. That means that you must be trying to affirm what is the best golf swing biomechanics/mechanics for you. You constantly critique the rationale of Tapio's and KM/Jeffy's thinking re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics, and question their legitimacy. However, you refuse to affirm what you believe is "correct" and that attitude in a golf forum devoted to a discussion/debate re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics makes no sense to me. I, at least, will provide a counterargument if I disagree with Tapio's or Jeffy's opinions re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, so that they can examine/critique the premises and/or conclusions of my counterargument. If you decide not to produce counterarguments, then I cannot understand why any forum member should respond to your posts.
Jeff.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 10, 2012 21:27:09 GMT -5
I never refused to affirm what I believe is correct and such a presumption makes no sense from my post. I refused to answer your question because it is a complex question to properly analyze and answer. Don't forget you asked me the question out of the blue and I said nothing about the presumptions built into your question that woud have triggered the question as a challenge to your position. I believe that if someone is asserting a positive they bear the burden of proof to support the positive. Otherwise, the person asserting the negative now bears the burden of proof which is fruitless. So now everyone must state what they believe is correct when they ask a challenging question? That's a ridiculous burden in any forum and it would be silly to not answer a question because the person asking the question won't state everything they believe is correct. I assert general swing theory at certain times and on my own terms just as you do. Granular discussions about swing theory often lead to thread jacking.
What is a drive/hold release? Kelvin has never succinctly stated as you correctly pointed out. Tapio makes up definitions (ex. the word supinate) or states facts that violate the law of non-contradiction without explanation (golfer can pronate while supinating).
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 10, 2012 23:24:44 GMT -5
What is a drive/hold release? Kelvin has never succinctly stated as you correctly pointed out. Tapio makes up definitions (ex. the word supinate) or states facts that violate the law of non-contradiction without explanation (golfer can pronate while supinating). And stop that bullshit right away CW, I have never said like that and you really should learn your own language and recognize verbs, objects and subjects from the text as well passive and active. Try to understand that golfer can pronate his forearm, which means that his muscles ARE WORKING to that way. You understand? Like you are straightening your arms at bench press, right? Now the forearm can still supinate even player is pronating that, if the outside force is greater than that muscular work. You understand? So in bench press you are pushing your arms straight as hard you can (Extending) but if you got too much weight there, you end up to to flexion even you are extending them. I don't know if this helps anyway. Steve tried already to explain it to you so many times, but as far there is life there is hope. So player really can pronate (produce that direction muscular action (subject, verb, active) but forearm can still supinate ( object, passive). And that happens every time anyway in all good swings where player rotates the club like in my opposite circles video. You will never see something else than that, because the forces at the club are so strong that they make your arms cross and bend after all. But you can learn to see the difference of amount of crossing. For example if you learn to watch how much apart those lower forearms are from each other you can get pretty close... Look CW, you are taking lessons from someone who can't really hit the ball but he tells you what you should do. I also can't hit the ball very well, but I talk all the time with guys who can. I know what kind of muscular action they produce and what we can never see from video or from any scientific papers where only the motions are observed. The most common mistake in golf is that people believe what they see is active, when actually 90% of that what we see is opposite than work behind of that.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 0:22:04 GMT -5
Warning to Tapio and cwdlaw223,
I have zero tolerance for the relentless/endless non-useful debate that has characterized your interaction in the Gotham Golf Blog forum. You will both be immediately banned from this forum if you both continue to indulge in that bantering style of interaction.
Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 0:41:24 GMT -5
Warning to Tapio and cwdlaw223, I have zero tolerance for the relentless/endless non-useful debate that has characterized your interaction in the Gotham Golf Blog forum. You will both be immediately banned from this forum if you both continue to indulge in that bantering style of interaction. Jeff. If you really think my response was non-useful and didn't include clear explanation you can just ban me right away. I really don't need to listen when someone puts words to my mouth what never has been said.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 0:54:01 GMT -5
Tapio,
You wrote-: "If you really think my response was non-useful and didn't include clear explanation you can just ban me right away."
One doesn't get banned from this forum for expressing opinions re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics in a non-useful or unclear manner. One gets banned for indulging in unecessary/insulting ad hominem comments that have a taunting quality eg. "And stop that bullshit right away CW, I have never said like that and you really should learn your own language and recognize verbs, objects and subjects from the text as well passive and active". I would certainly agree that he insulted you first by stating-: "Tapio makes up definitions (ex. the word supinate) or states facts that violate the law of non-contradiction without explanation (golfer can pronate while supinating)" and he will be promptly banned if he continues to insult you. I simply will not tolerate the endless back-and-forth insults that characterized your interaction in the Gothan Golf Blog forum.
Jeff.
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