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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 0:59:09 GMT -5
Tapio, You wrote-: "If you really think my response was non-useful and didn't include clear explanation you can just ban me right away." One doesn't get banned from this forum for expressing opinions re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics in a non-useful or unclear manner. One gets banned for indulging in unecessary/insulting ad hominem comments that have a taunting quality eg. " And stop that bullshit right away CW, I have never said like that and you really should learn your own language and recognize verbs, objects and subjects from the text as well passive and active". I would certainly agree that he insulted you first by stating-: " Tapio makes up definitions (ex. the word supinate) or states facts that violate the law of non-contradiction without explanation (golfer can pronate while supinating)" and he will be promptly banned if he continues to insult you. I simply will not tolerate the endless back-and-forth insults that characterized your interaction in the Gothan Golf Blog forum. Jeff. Fair enough for me and I try to hold my temper even when I receive that kind of claims in the future. It just frustrates me so badly when all relevant information gets hidden behind of that kind of BS.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 9:25:53 GMT -5
Jeff -
What do you think Kelvin means by a drive/hold release? What's driving? What's holding?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 10:02:57 GMT -5
I have no idea what Kelvin means because I have never seen him provide a detailed explanation. I believe that there are different biomechanical mechanisms of producing a drive-hold release action (DH used as a noun). One can simply keep the FLW moving very actively through impact, so that there is no flipping motion of the FLW between P6.9 and P7.2 - and the right wrist/hand is totally passive in this hand release action. Alternatively, one can both keep the FLW moving very actively through the immediate impact zone while simultaneosuly applying push-pressure with the right palm against PP#1 while maintaining a constantly bent left wrist. John Erickson is using that technique in his ABS hitting action - see next photo. The 3rd DH-technique is used by a TGM hitter. The left arm/FLW is passive and the FLW is driven through impact by the straightening right arm applying push-pressure against PP#1 with a constantly bent ("frozen") right wrist. Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 10:23:34 GMT -5
I have no idea what Kelvin means because I have never seen him provide a detailed explanation. I believe that there are different biomechanical mechanisms of producing a drive-hold release action (DH used as a noun). One can simply keep the FLW moving very actively through impact, so that there is no flipping motion of the FLW between P6.9 and P7.2 - and the right wrist/hand is totally passive in this hand release action. Alternatively, one can both keep the FLW moving very actively through the immediate impact zone while simultaneosuly applying push-pressure with the right palm against PP#1 while maintaining a constantly bent left wrist. John Erickson is using that technique in his ABS hitting action - see next photo. The 3rd DH-technique is used by a TGM hitter. The left arm/FLW is passive and the FLW is driven through impact by the straightening right arm applying push-pressure against PP#1 with a constantly bent ("frozen") right wrist. Jeff. That's not the same as I understand it. Actually quite far away from it. For me it's two things. Keeping the right wrist totally bent and taking the handle left so that the shaft stays perpendicular to the target line long time. To get the intention like this And of course in full speed it never stays like that, but that's the active part of it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 11:00:44 GMT -5
I have never seen the shaft stay perpendicular to the ball-target line between P7 and P7.2 in a golfer who uses a DH-release action. Secondly, during a DH-release action (used as a noun) there is no mandatory requirement that the right wrist remain bent - because I believe that a golfer is using a DH-release action (as a noun) if the left wrist remains flat and if the LAFW remains intact between P7 and P7.2. The amount of right wrist bend depends on many factors. Here is Sasho MacKenzie using a DH-release action between P7 and P7.2+ - using only a single lead arm. Note that he maintains a flat lead wrist and intact LAFW to well beyond impact. Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 11, 2012 14:24:05 GMT -5
IMO that move got nothing to do with golf swing. No shoulder rotation and huge separation of the lead arm and body
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 15:27:05 GMT -5
So in the end nobody really knows how one drives/holds according to Kelvin. I guess you have to purchase a lesson to find out which I can understand.
I like Jeff's 3rd explanation in post 17.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 16:10:46 GMT -5
So in the end nobody really knows how one drives/holds according to Kelvin. I guess you have to purchase a lesson to find out which I can understand. I like Jeff's 3rd explanation in post 17. I guess I see it differently, maybe not even correctly according to KM, but I see it as a result rather anything you are intentionly trying to do. It would be like saying "CP your arms" in this swing rather than "CF them". Well CP is a result of many variables. Getting your hands and arms into the "drive/hold" position through impact is not an active movement but a result. I feel like the result is more a body/hip drive movement...a couple years ago I thought it was a hand/arm/shoulder movement.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 16:25:26 GMT -5
Tapio, You wrote-: " IMO that move got nothing to do with golf swing. No shoulder rotation and huge separation of the lead arm and body." Nonsense! There is very little difference in the degree of lead arm separation away from the torso (between P7 and P7.5) in Sasho's swing compared to many PGA tour golfers. Here is Dustin Johnson. Sasho's lead arm gets further away from the torso after P7.5 because it is not constrained by the rear arm. I also think that there is very little difference in Sasho's left shoulder motion between P7 and P7.5 - compared to DJ. Here is the SMK swing video. How can any rational person say that it doesn't represent a legitimate golf swing action? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 16:33:41 GMT -5
Greg, You wrote-: " Getting your hands and arms into the "drive/hold" position through impact is not an active movement but a result. I feel like the result is more a body/hip drive movement...a couple years ago I thought it was a hand/arm/shoulder movement." I think that you are very wrong - because maintaining a FLW from P6.9 to P7.2 has nothing direct to do with body/pelvis motions. How can there be a direct causal connection? Here is Roger Federer hitting a backhanded tennis shot. He maintains a FLW from P7 to P8. How can it be causally due to body/pelvic motions? Here is me swinging a badmintom racquet from P5.5 to P8 while maintaining a GFLW and intact LAFW. Why would you think that my capacity to maintain a GFLW from P5.5 to P8 has anything directly to do with my body/pelvis motions? Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 11, 2012 16:59:22 GMT -5
A child could maintain a FLW with your badminton rackets using nothing but their amrs, of this I cant disagree.
Maybe the same with the tennis rackets, but I have a sneaky suspicion if RF was swinging a heavy racket, without using his legs, hips and shoulders, lets say they were locked into a static position, and he was moving the racket at 110mph that holding that FLW would become very very difficult.
If the hips stop/slow you are dumping at P6.5-P7.......if you can get the hips to keep their acceleration up and open from P6.5-P7 you are going to get a nice FLW through impact. I believe thats why guys like DJ and Bubba have such great FLW and drive hold type releases.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 17:12:49 GMT -5
Jeff -
What's the load on the tennis racket swing by Roger vs. the load on a 45" driver swung at 120 mph? Not sure that the tennis racket is even close to the golf club with lead and toe deflection that is unavoidable by the load.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 11, 2012 17:14:13 GMT -5
A child could maintain a FLW with your badminton rackets using nothing but their amrs, of this I cant disagree. Maybe the same with the tennis rackets, but I have a sneaky suspicion if RF was swinging a heavy racket, without using his legs, hips and shoulders, lets say they were locked into a static position, and he was moving the racket at 110mph that holding that FLW would become very very difficult. If the hips stop/slow you are dumping at P6.5-P7.......if you can get the hips to keep their acceleration up and open from P6.5-P7 you are going to get a nice FLW through impact. I believe thats why guys like DJ and Bubba have such great FLW and drive hold type releases. Greg - What's driving? What's holding?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 17:47:15 GMT -5
Greg, You wrote-: " Maybe the same with the tennis rackets, but I have a sneaky suspicion if RF was swinging a heavy racket, without using his legs, hips and shoulders, lets say they were locked into a static position, and he was moving the racket at 110mph that holding that FLW would become very very difficult." I agree that continuously rotating the torso/pelvis between P7 and P8 makes it easier to keep the arms in front of the rotating torso, and if one can keep the left arm aligned in front of the rotating torso between P7 and P8, it makes it easier to maintain a FLW from P7 to P7.5+. However, the rotating torso/pelvis doesn't cause the left wrist to maintain its FLW alignment - it simply makes it easier for the golfer to move the back of the FLW inside-left fast enough to prevent left wrist breakdown. What enables a golfer to maintain a FLW, and prevent flipping, from P7 to P7.5 is the fact that he moves the FLW inside-left as fast as the clubshaft is moving inside-left between P7 and P7.5. In other words, he only needs to ensure that the FLW rotates at the same rpm (inside-left) as the rotating clubshaft rotates (inside-left) during this time period. You also wrote-: "I f the hips stop/slow you are dumping at P6.5-P7.......if you can get the hips to keep their acceleration up and open from P6.5-P7 you are going to get a nice FLW through impact. I believe thats why guys like DJ and Bubba have such great FLW and drive hold type releases." I disagree! Both golfers stall their pelvic motion through impact (between P6.7 and P7.5). However, they both maintain their upper torso rotation (and therefore left shoulder socket rotation) between P6.7 and P7.5+, and that allows them to maintain the forward motion of the left arm in an inside-left direction between P7 and P7.5. It is the unimpeded motion of the left arm in an inside-left direction from P7 to P7.5+ that allows a golfer to more easily maintain an unimpeded motion of the FLW in the same direction, and that enables a golfer to maintain a DH-release action to well beyond impact. perfectgolfswingreview.net/JohnsonP7ToP8.jpg [/img] One can clearly see that DJ's pelvis has stalled and is not continuing to rotate between P7 and P7.5+. However, there is no stalling of his left shoulder and left arm motion in an inside-left direction between P7 and P7.5+. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 11, 2012 17:56:44 GMT -5
cwdlaw223, You wrote-: " What's the load on the tennis racket swing by Roger vs. the load on a 45" driver swung at 120 mph? Not sure that the tennis racket is even close to the golf club with lead and toe deflection that is unavoidable by the load." What point are you trying to make? The speeding clubhead during the late downswing is obviously going to affect the shaft and produce toe/lead shaft deflection near impact, but what has that to with a golfer's ability to maintain a FLW through impact? Mazza is maintaining an intact LAFW and functionally flat left wrist through impact - even though the clubhead speed is 145+mph. I can see the deflection of his peripheral shaft as he nears impact, but why should that affect his ability to maintain a functionally flat left wrist from P6.9 to P7.2+? Jeff.
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