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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 18, 2012 0:17:50 GMT -5
See this BM-forum thread www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17921-charl-schwartzel.htmlThey are discussing this swing video of Charl Schwartzel The BM groupies are admiring his swing, even though he does two things they normally decry - 1) he keeps his left arm very straight and 2) he doesn't decelerate his left hip clearing action in his later downswing (note how his left upper thigh continuously rotates counterclockwise without any deceleration pre-impact). Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Dec 21, 2012 21:17:09 GMT -5
2) he doesn't decelerate his left hip clearing action in his later downswing (note how his left upper thigh continuously rotates counterclockwise without any deceleration pre-impact). Are you sure about that? From P6 to impact (and well beyond) the hips and upper left leg are rotating much less and slower then they were from P4 to P6. This video clearly shows it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 22, 2012 0:27:07 GMT -5
I don't see any slowing of the left thigh's counterclockwise rotation between P6 and P7 in the video that I originally posted.
Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 22, 2012 1:52:00 GMT -5
I don't see any slowing of the left thigh's counterclockwise rotation between P6 and P7 in the video that I originally posted. Jeff. Also in Konrads video I see strong deceleration only after impact. Close to impact but nothing even close early enough that it could help him to gain more speed to outer circle. But anyway.. watching video and trying to see hip rotation speed is waste of time. Just too complicated thing.
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Post by konrad on Dec 22, 2012 7:22:20 GMT -5
I don't see any slowing of the left thigh's counterclockwise rotation between P6 and P7 in the video that I originally posted. That's why I posted that video so you could see that he actually does slow down the left thigh and hip rotation between P6 and impact and beyond. It's difficult to see in the video you posted. You do see it now though don't you? It's pretty obvious IMO. Also in Konrads video I see strong deceleration only after impact. Close to impact but nothing even close early enough that it could help him to gain more speed to outer circle.
But anyway.. watching video and trying to see hip rotation speed is waste of time. Just too complicated thing. I disagree. There is definitely a deceleration from P6 to impact. It's plain as day. Who said anything about whether this decel contributes to a gain in speed of the clubhead? It may be a waste of time and/or too complicated to accurately measure the amount of deceleration of the hips just looking at 1500 fps video, but, surely it is apparent the hips slow down before the clubhead strikes the ball in that video of Schwartzel. That's pretty easy to see.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 22, 2012 9:55:03 GMT -5
Konrad,
I think that CS is not deliberately decelerating his left hip clearing action, but I could agree that it naturally slows down when his left leg becomes very straight. Do you believe that there is a biomechanical imperative for pelvic slowing pre-impact - if a golfer wants to optimize his ball-striking?
Jeff.
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 22, 2012 16:51:19 GMT -5
. That's pretty easy to see. Konrad, in reality that's just impossible to see. If the rotation axis changes it can confuse us very strongly.
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Post by konrad on Dec 22, 2012 18:40:18 GMT -5
Konrad, I think that CS is not deliberately decelerating his left hip clearing action, but I could agree that it naturally slows down when his left leg becomes very straight. Do you believe that there is a biomechanical imperative for pelvic slowing pre-impact - if a golfer wants to optimize his ball-striking?Jeff, it's impossible to know if CS is not deliberately decelerating his left hip clearing action without actually asking him. Both being deliberate and natural originate in the brain. Don't we do swing biomechanics deliberately so we can end up doing them naturally without conscience thought? If I had to guess, I would think CS tries to rotate his hips fast right at transition and they end up decelerating before impact without him thinking about it. To answer your question, yes pelvic slowing is a biomechanical imperative pre-impact if that's what the player needs to do to produce optimal ball flight. As it relates to all golfers, it may or may not be imperative to optimize ball striking. Not to seem argumentative, I could agree that left hip clearing action can naturally decelerate without the player deliberately trying to do so. But, that could be said about any biomechanical swing move. Wouldn't you agree that making the entire swing natural is the most optimal way to swing a golf club?
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Post by tapiosantala on Dec 23, 2012 6:28:53 GMT -5
Konrad, in reality that's just impossible to see. I disagree. I can clearly see a decel in that video. There's no doubt in my mind that CS's hips have rotated counter-clockwise a lot from P4 to P6 and are significantly open in relation to the target line. His left leg maintains it's flex from P4 to P5 and it moves horizontally forward with a rotating characteristic. As CS approaches P6 that left leg begins to straighten and rotate less. At the same time the pelvis begins to ascend and rotation slows down. Tapio, until you can produce a 3D graph of Schwartzel hitting a driver that shows no deceleration from P6 to impact, I'll trust my ability to view that video and recognize his left hip clearing action is decelerating prior to the clubhead striking the ball. Yep. I made that same mistake so many times by watching a video. And I don't claim if there is any dec or acc. Just say that it moves so tricky way that it's really hard to see from video. Even measurements and calculations can be made so many ways there that one way can show opposite to another. Still long way for all of us to really understand how many ways it can happen and still hit ti well.
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Post by konrad on Dec 23, 2012 7:28:18 GMT -5
Yep. I made that same mistake so many times by watching a video. What mistake? I'm not making a mistake about CS in that video. It clearly shows Schwartzel's "hip clearing action" decels before impact. If not, what is happening then? Is it speeding up or continually rotating without any deceleration as Jeff first suggested? I don't think so. Download the video and then frame advance it and you'll see why there is a deceleration before impact. If you're throwing out your same old sentiment Tapio about being fooled for so many years by looking at video, I don't care about that, it doesn't apply to this particular video of Schwartzel swinging a driver. In this case it's obvious what is going on. Actually, it's a wonderful video at 1500 fps. Frame advance it from P6 to P8, which is from :34 to :36 seconds. If you have Quicktime Pro you can smoothly toggle it back and forth and really see what is happening with his left leg and hip clearing action pre-impact.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 23, 2012 19:03:42 GMT -5
Konrad,
You wrote-: "To answer your question, yes pelvic slowing is a biomechanical imperative pre-impact if that's what the player needs to do to produce optimal ball flight".
How would a golfer know whether he needs pelvic slowing to produce an optimal ball flight?
You also implied that the optimal way to swing a club is to make the swing natural. However, I think that it can be deemed to be natural to decelerate the pelvis pre-impact and it can also be deemed to be natural if one maintains one's pelvic speed pre-impact. So the concept of what is "natural" has no real/useful meaning with respect to the swing style choice regarding pelvic motion.
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Dec 23, 2012 23:56:23 GMT -5
How would a golfer know whether he needs pelvic slowing to produce an optimal ball flight? When he has pelvic slowing while hitting the ball solidly with the exact desired ball flight. the concept of what is "natural" has no real/useful meaning with respect to the swing style choice regarding pelvic motion. Correct. If the golfer hits the ball well naturally decelerating the pelvis pre-impact or hits the ball well naturally maintaining the pelvic speed pre-impact, in each case there would be no need to choose between the two pelvic type motions. It would be useful to make the swing as natural or instinctive as possible so the golfer could swing the club under pressure optimally without a lot of deliberate thinking about swing mechanics/biomechanics. Back to the topic of this thread which is you taking a shot at the BM groupies, as you call them, because of your belief that CS doesn't decelerate his left hip clearing action in his later downswing which is counter to what the Manzella crew publicly promotes. Now you seem to think CS could be naturally slowing his left hip clearing action when his left leg straightens. That gets us pretty close to an agreement, because I definitely think CS is decelerating his left hip clearing action in the later downswing based on the video I posted and I don't really care if he is deliberately doing it or it is occurring naturally because of the left leg straightening. If there is slowing in the late downswing in Schwartzel's swing then it seems the groupies could be partially exonerated.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 24, 2012 1:12:07 GMT -5
Konrad,
You wrote-: "When he has pelvic slowing while hitting the ball solidly with the exact desired ball flight."
I regard that opinion as being nonsensical - because he could be hitting the ball solidly despite having pelvic slowing. If he hits another ball solidly with the exact desired ball flight without pelvic slowing, then it demonstrates that pelvic slowing is not causally related to his good ball striking ability. I believe that if pelvic slowing is causally responsible for good ball striking in a particular golfer, then you have to demonstrate that he cannot manifest good ball striking without pelvic slowing and I would also like to see you explain why pelvic slowing is a biomechanical imperative from an explanatory perspective."
You also wrote-: "That gets us pretty close to an agreement, because I definitely think CS is decelerating his left hip clearing action in the later downswing based on the video I posted and I don't really care if he is deliberately doing it or it is occurring naturally because of the left leg straightening. If there is slowing in the late downswing in Schwartzel's swing then it seems the groupies could be partially exonerated."
I disagree. If CS is decelerating his pelvis just before impact because he is reaching the endpoint of his "left hip clearing" action, then it is simply a natural manifestation of his pelvic motion. It does not imply that it is required for him to hit the ball solidly. BM states unequivocally that the pelvis must slow down prior to impact if a golfer wants to manifest good ball striking ability - although he has never stated why it is necessary.
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Dec 24, 2012 8:24:18 GMT -5
I regard that opinion as being nonsensical You are entitled to your personal opinion that my response is nonsensical. I disagree. I could add to it so it reads... "When he has pelvic slowing while hitting the ball solidly with the exact desired ball flight and he cannot get those optimal results without it." Even with that answer it could still be debated he hit the ball well despite having pelvic slowing. IMO, your question is off topic and I have no interest in going into a detailed explanation of why pelvic slowing may or may not be a biomechanical imperative to a particular golfer. Maybe another thread could be started to discuss that issue in depth. If CS is decelerating his pelvis just before impact because he is reaching the endpoint of his "left hip clearing" action, then it is simply a natural manifestation of his pelvic motion. It does not imply that it is required for him to hit the ball solidly. BM states unequivocally that the pelvis must slow down prior to impact if a golfer wants to manifest good ball striking ability I responded in this thread to put up a video that I feel clearly shows that your statement, "Schwartzel doesn't decelerate his left hip clearing action in his later downswing and his left upper thigh continuously rotates counterclockwise without any deceleration pre-impact" to be incorrect. I think I'm right and I explained why with a description of what I see Schwartzel doing in that video. You have not given any explanation or given any new evidence that would indicate that I am wrong. Your response was you think CS is not deliberately decelerating his left hip clearing action and you could agree that it naturally slows down when his left leg straightens. I read that as you are agreeing that there is slowing. Whether it's a natural manifestation of his pelvic motion doesn't change the fact that Schwartzel's left hip clearing action in that video is slowing pre-impact. I'm not presently concerned with BM's beliefs. I just believe you were mistaken with your initial observation of Schwartzel's Pelvic motion. Other than that...have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 24, 2012 10:30:08 GMT -5
Konrad, You modified your original statement to read as follows-: " When he has pelvic slowing while hitting the ball solidly with the exact desired ball flight and he cannot get those optimal results without it." That is a very specific claim, and if true, I would be very interested in understanding the underlying biomechanics - even if you are not willing to offer a likely explanation. I have also changed my thinking regarding the issue of what represents a slowing of the "left hip clearing action". I now even believe that Dustin Johnson is not slowing his "left hip clearing action" - even though his right pelvis slows down through impact. Dustin Johnson swing video I believe that DJ's "left hip clearing action" is performed as a continuous action and that any measurable slowing of his left thigh's counterclockwise rotation is simply due to the impedance offered by a straightening/loaded left leg. Golfers who have a bent left knee at impact (like Hogan) have less impedance to slowing of the counterclockwise rotation of the left thigh, and they may not manifest any slowing of the "left hip clearing action". The issue of right pelvis slowing through impact is a different issue - and I have noted that many pro golfers who use a CF-arm release action manifest this pattern; while golfers who use a CP-arm release action are more likely to continue their right pelvis rotation through impact (like Hogan). When Hogan reaches impact - his left thigh is not fully rotated counterclockwise, and he still continues to rotate his left thigh counterclockwise after impact, and he simultaneously rotates his right pelvis actively through impact. Jeff.
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