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Post by bullet on Dec 19, 2012 3:53:30 GMT -5
Manzella states that his experts on his forum know what they are writing about when dissecting morad and Mac Ogrady . His experts include Rick dandy , Jared Wilerson, virtuoso and bill McKinney . How many morad schools have each of these attended?
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 19, 2012 8:57:52 GMT -5
I go to his forum about once every month or so and usually it’s when something is pointed out to me by a reader or if Jeffy posts something. So, I don’t know who Rick Dandy is. The others I know haven’t gone to a school. Willerson used to get lessons thru John Dochety, who worked with MORAD for about six years.
I do know that Manzella knows instructors who have been in MORAD that feed him information. But, I also know that he gets a lot of stuff about MORAD wrong. I’m not sure why that is, but a lot of it is wrong. Same with the Stack and Tilt information.
Hell, it was about a year ago when they came up with the ‘new release’ and I mentioned that many of their findings were things Mac discovered about 20 years ago. They threw a hissy fit over it. Then Dana Dahlquist told Mike Finney that I was right….Mac discovered that years ago. Finney gave his usual, head in the sand, condescending ‘whatever’ style of response.
That’s how things operate over there.
3JACK
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Post by bullet on Dec 19, 2012 9:41:19 GMT -5
Thanks 3 jack , im guessing zero schools between the lot of them , except maybe the franklin guy but Lets see if virtuoso can fill in some gaps , he seems to think morad has very little cog shift and hard to master the side bends . Which cog virt? And what pattern? Interesting Manzella is now claiming he is teaching how to pivot through the ball with his hand on the patients butt and the other on the left boob etc it all just reeks of morad tailbone release , it's just a tiny piece of it though! I find it hard to believe anyone could actually throw Ogrady under the handle dragging bus , but anyone hitting a short , mid iron and catching some sod is a handle dragger . I could show a ton of pics of just about any decent golfer catching sod or for that matter an average one
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 19, 2012 10:31:47 GMT -5
Manzella uses some MORAD stuff that he got directly from those he talks to who went thru MORAD. I've had several students of his convey this to me.
Here's the problems they have:
1. They can't accurately determine a handle dragger. This was shown in the Boo Weekely debate. In fact, they stated that the only way they could determine handle dragging is by asking the golfer if they are trying to drag the handle. I will give this information out, I have never been told to drag the handle in all my work with my instructor, George Hunt (no relation).
2. Not a single one of these teachers can hit the ball anywhere near as well as Mac. Even today when Mac is (IIRC), 60 years old.
3JACK
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 19, 2012 12:16:56 GMT -5
I hope you guys are not insinuating that I don't like Mac O'Grady's swing. It's the best ever. Bullet- the body has multiple centers of gravity? You don't think it is difficult copy O'Grady's late 80's swing? I'm talking about this swing: www.historicgolfphotos.com/store/category/ogrady-swing-sequence-9800/You think there is a large lateral Center of gravity shift in this swing? I haven't attended any MORAD schools and have only a vague idea of what MOG is teaching now. Obviously I've noticed his swing is a lot different than it used to be. Richie, you make a point that none of us can hit it as well as Mac. I know I can't for sure. So, that means I'm automatically unqualified to comment on his late 80's swing? I guess no one can then, because I watched him play and IMO, no one came close.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 19, 2012 13:58:16 GMT -5
Richie, you make a point that none of us can hit it as well as Mac. I know I can't for sure. So, that means I'm automatically unqualified to comment on his late 80's swing? I guess no one can then, because I watched him play and IMO, no one came close. You are unqualified because you have no clue what you’re talking about as evidenced by how inaccurate your statements are. I’m not trying to be mean to you, but that is just the way it is. I don’t know who 'bullet' is, but I can tell that he’s qualified to some degree because of the statements he makes. And I know what his response is going to be to your questions because he obviously has dealt in MORAD in some capacity. I don’t know you, either. But, I would like to believe that you do like to be accurate in your posts and you are looking foolish because of those inaccuracies. The difference is that Brian and Co. don’t care if they are inaccurate because as long as it makes them feel like they look good, that’s all that matters to them. That means more $$$ from Tuxen, more top-100 teacher rankings and more Web site clicks and video buys. They still think MORAD is a method. But then contradict that by their anti-handle dragging stance because if they did not teach a method, then they would not try to undo handle dragging of a golfer that strikes it as well as Mac or Boo Weekley. 3JACK
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 19, 2012 14:16:35 GMT -5
Ok Richie, fair enough. My opinion is that you seem to be a fair minded guy. No agenda, and you call it like you see it.
But I don't agree that I'm completely clueless about what MOG was trying to do in the mid 80's. I used to have many hours of home video of him just talking to the camera and hitting balls. He was going through his swing philosophies and trying to show how he put his theories in practice. I had video of him working with Jodie Mudd, and a number of other students, and etc.
So I have a fair understanding of what he was working on THEN.
I've never claimed to have specific knowledge of what he teaches now.
My contention is this: as simple as his swing looked, it is a very difficult swing to replicate correctly such that you can get similar results. It is very easy to screw up.
I did say that if it is done properly, it can be very effective.
So my question to you is, how are those statements inaccurate? And since you seem to know, how will bullet respond? I happy to learn anything from a well versed MORAD guy......although, looking back at his previous posts, he has a low threshold of patience for people he disagrees with.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 19, 2012 14:48:27 GMT -5
I am very confident that I know how 'bullet' will respond to the 'lack of lateral shift.' It's a very basic part and there's a reason why you don't see it with that photo.
But, what you don't seem to understand is that MORAD is not about replicating Mac's swing. That's a very basic concept. And yourself, Brian and the other guys over at Brian's forum fail to understand that. That's why it is very ironic when Brian claims one thing that is wrong and then contradicts himself with his anti-handle dragging campaign.
Look at the swings of players he has coached. Vijay, Seve, Mudd, Elkington, Beck, etc.
All of them had noticeably different swing mechanics. There is no attempt to replicate Mac's swing mechanics.
But, Elkington was a premier ballstriker. So were Vijay (won the Masters under Mac), Mudd and Beck (who didn't get worse until he split from Mac and did things on his own). Seve's ballstriking greatly improved and he started winning again.
There is no 'doing it properly' because it does not demand a facsimile of Mac's mechanics.
3JACK
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 19, 2012 15:16:50 GMT -5
Ok, I eagerly await his response. I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about the pelvis or tailbone. Or how the backswing sets up the downswing. Specifically, I'm talking about the total movement of his center of gravity.
If there was a laser pointing down from his center of gravity and you traced its movement along the ground, my contention is that you would see a much tighter "spiral" than most traditional golf swings. I'm not really talking about what you'd see on force plates because there would be a small deviation between those readings and the actual cg location.
Check me on this Richie, there was NO attempt to replicate Mac's swing mechanics? I had an awful lot of video of him hitting side by side with people.
Once again, I don't claim to know much about MORAD. My understanding is that you match certain pieces of the swing together to produce different flight patterns.
Please stop making this about Brian and handle dragging. Clearly I like Brian and think he is a world class teacher. You have some issues with him, fine.
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 19, 2012 15:56:50 GMT -5
Ok, I eagerly await his response. I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about the pelvis or tailbone. Or how the backswing sets up the downswing. Specifically, I'm talking about the total movement of his center of gravity. Absolutely. Again, very basic. In fact, it was the first thing I ever learned from George in our first lesson. So? Did Elk, Vijay, Beck or Mudd not have noticeably different mechanics? That's really the crux of the question. Also remember who most of Mac's students at these schools are....fellow instructors. But, you act like you do with your assumptions. If the assumptions were accurate, then people like 'bullet' would not take such offense to them. That's where I understand 'bullet's' frustration. As you would do with any swing. I'm certain that if Manzella wanted to have a player hit a high push draw he would get the student to employ different mechanics than if he looked for a low pull-cut or a mid-traj straight ball. At least I would hope so. Certainly, I have things about Brian I don’t like. But, my arguments against his anti-handle dragging not only their merits, but they are topical. Bullet’s OP was in relation to Brian’s thread call “The Hips and Handle Dragging.” Furthermore, Brian and his crew have attacked MORAD and Mac for handle dragging. They can’t accurately determine it. And even their faux way of determining handle dragging means that Mac would be excluded because I have never been told to drag the handle. And since I have had a lesson from John Dochety years ago, I’m confident that Willerson was never taught to drag the handle by Mr. Dochety either. It’s ridiculous to ask me to stop talking about Brian and handle dragging when it’s a large purpose of this thread and his thread over at his forum. He looks like a fool discussing it because for being so scientific, he has the most ridiculous un-scientific way of determining it. And the guys they claim ‘handle drag’ (Mac and Weekley) are simply great ballstrikers. Ignoring that won’t make it true. 3JACK
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 19, 2012 17:03:00 GMT -5
Ok Richie, let me see if I'm clear on what you're saying:
1. MOG's 80's swing did indeed have a cg shift that would not be considered less than a traditional swing, but it can't be seen with pictures, especially since I don't know where to look.
2. When Mac would hit side by side with people, he was not using his swing as a model, and further, the fact that his tour pro student swings look different proves that Mac did not use his swing as a model.
3. I have made certain assumptions that make it seem like I know about MORAD. Thus a guy like Bullet is offended because he actually knows and I don't know "falk all about it."
4. While using the info from MORAD, the adjustments made to create different flight patterns are no more dramatic than most other ways of swinging, and thus that would be a poor definition used to distinguish it.
5. And lastly, we are going to continue to talk about handle dragging because this thread is not all about you, virtuoso.
How am I doing?
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Post by richie3jack on Dec 19, 2012 17:28:27 GMT -5
Ok Richie, let me see if I'm clear on what you're saying: 1. MOG's 80's swing did indeed have a cg shift that would not be considered less than a traditional swing, but it can't be seen with pictures, especially since I don't know where to look. Nope. Nope. Pretty much. More or less. Yup. Better than most. 3JACK
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 19, 2012 19:02:27 GMT -5
"Better than most" is good for me.
Let me ask you this. How would you distinguish what MOG taught in the 80's vs what he teaches now?
Also, why do the MORAD guys talk about multiple cg's when the body only has one? What's that all about?
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Post by bullet on Dec 19, 2012 19:53:42 GMT -5
The last couple of pages of this thread, with GREAT posts from folks who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT—without bias—is rthe reason there is NO OTHER PLACE like this forum and NEVER will be.
None of these posts were from me.
Thanks, Rick Dandy, Jared Wilerson, Virtuoso, Bill McKinney....Hall o'Fame stuff.
The conviction is astonishing , the beautifully typed out caps lock to massage his ego . Hey virt , not busting your balls , I read your comments and you were not throwing him under the handle dragging bus , I was more interested in you though since you might have had some morad influence.
The most interesting aspect of it all is that the whole handle dragging thing is really an anti Tgm and in particular Ben Doyle version of max participation swinging procedure and from what I gather is about too much acceleration and pull in transition thus getting handle drag. Do you know that morad is called Mac ogradys rant against Doyle by the munzella , ironic isn't it , that he bagged on morad for years ( morad is against over acceleration in transition) when he pissed in Ben Doyle's pocket , and now he lumps morad into Ben Doyle's Tgm swing procedure . Of course great posts from people in the KNOW, I guess they were all there and know what shot Mac executed in that video .
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 19, 2012 20:36:53 GMT -5
Bullet, thanks for the response.
I think the thing that facinated me about MOG when he was playing was that EVERYTHING was super dynamic all the time. When I watched his swing in slo-mo, on the downswing, the butt end of the club looked like it was starting too soon and then all of a sudden it wasn't, it looked like held the angle too long and then all of a sudden he didn't, it looked like the arms might over accelerate and they suddenly wouldn't, it looked like the attack would be too steep and then it would suddenly bottom out perfect....and then I would think it's turning into a flip at impact and suddenly after impact it hadn't flipped. His torso was tilting and turning all the time dynamically in perfect sync with the V motion of his arms. I just couldn't get over watching it.
Now, don't think I haven't tried to copy it for the past 25 years. It's very difficult, and as I've said, I've seen some cheap imitations of it because in my opinion, their body pivot is not dynamic enough with the rotational components and the tilting motions. And, even more importantly, they don't sequence it like O'Grady did.
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