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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 29, 2012 1:05:31 GMT -5
Virtuoso, Are you willing to try an experiment for me? You have the skills that should make the experiment possible. Use your normal swing action, but try to keep your FLW facing the target for longer through impact by pulling your left hand actively through impact - as demonstrated by these forthcoming photos. This is your normal swing action. Image 1 is your impact hand alignment - FLW and bent right wrist. Image 2 shows that you maintain that impact alignment for a few inches post-impact, but your FLW is already starting to roll counterclockwise to a minimal degree. Then you perform a full-roll hand release action between P7.1 and P7.3. Instead of doing that, try to do what I demonstrate in the following photo. Image 1 shows a green dotted line that represents your left arm position at impact. At this time, your left shoulder socket is moving up-and-away (red arrow) through impact. While this is happening you can choose to abduct your arm in the direction of the target (blue arrow) so that you still have a FLW and slightly bent right wrist at the P7.3 position (image 3). It should "feel" like you are drive-loading the FLW in a targetwards direction. Note that there is no counterclockwise rotation of my left arm/FLW in image 2 or image 3. If you successfully accomplish that action, then you should like DJ at P7.3 - see image 2 in the next sequence. What happens to the quality of your ball-striking and ball flight when you attempt that type of DH-release action between P7 and P7.2/P7.3 and where you delay your full-roll release to later than the P7.3 position (like DJ in image 3)? Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 29, 2012 13:14:21 GMT -5
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 29, 2012 13:16:43 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 29, 2012 17:26:59 GMT -5
Virtuoso, It is testament to your extradordinarily good golfing skills that you managed to perform a DH-release action as well as Dustin Johnson - in a single "goofing around" session. Here are capture images from your swing video. Image 1 shows you at P6.9 (start of the immediate impact zone). You have perfect impact alignments - a FLW facing the target, a bent right wrist and forward shaft lean. Image 2 shows you at P7.1 (end of the immediate impact zone). You stlll have a FLW facing the target and an intact LAFW (clubshaft has not bypassed the left arm). That means that you have ensured a stable clubface through impact where the clubface should be facing the target for many inches between P6.9 and P7.1. However, you have gone even further, and image 3 shows that you still have a FLW facing the target and an intact LAFW (where the clubshaft has not bypassed your left arm) at the P7.3 position. That's a true testament to how well you are drive-loading the FLW/intact LAFW to well beyond impact - just like Dustin Johnson. Image 4 shows that you have delayed your full-roll release action to later, and it only occurs after you bypass the P7.3-P7.5 position. I think that's the optimum choice and you are doing it extremely well, and you are now a role model (poster child) for how to maintain a stable CH path/CF through the immediate impact zone and how to avoid any flipping at/after impact and how to avoid any rolling of the clubface anywhere near impact. I could imagine that some BM groupies would look at your FLW/intact LAFW in image 3 and label you a handle-dragger. However, that would be a wrong-headed interpretation of your swing action. A handle dragger drags the handle towards impact, and tries to hold the lag. You are not doing that at all - you are simply using your regular club release action (that you use in your normal swing), but you are now maintaining the forward momentum of your FLW through impact in a drive-holding manner that significantly decreases the chances of flipping or rolling through impact. Another wrong-headed criticism would be related to the fact that you are maintaining a FLW and intact LAFW to P7.3, which means that you are not freely releasing the clubhead through impact, and critics will allege that your DH-release swing action will diminish your swing power (clubhead speed at impact). I think that's a fallacy and I suspect that you can hit the ball as far using this "DH-release technique combined with a delayed full-roll hand release action" as you can with your standard swing action. Thank you for showing how easy it is too convert to a hand release action through the impact zone that will more likely produce a more consistently stable clubface through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9 and P7.1+). Jeff.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 29, 2012 18:43:06 GMT -5
Jeff -
Why do you suspect no loss in speed? Feel free to include references to how the four accumulators are firing the same with a d/h release. Seems like a no roll release has no accumulator #3 or a lot less #3.
I'm not trying to debate Brian's ideas or discuss accuracy, just speed. I just want to know a counter position.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 29, 2012 20:22:34 GMT -5
cwdlaw223,
Whether a golfer uses a no-roll hand release action or a full-roll hand release action (early or delayed) after impact, it doesn't affect the amount of PA#3 release used pre-impact - because the different hand release actions only start at P6.9 and they don't affect any pre-impact PA-release phenomena (release of PA#4 => release of PA#2 => release of PA#3). The amount of PA#3 release used between P6.5 and P7 to square the clubface by P6.9 depends on grip strength - there is none for a very strong (4+ knuckle) left hand grip, some for a slightly strong (3 knuckle) left hand grip, more for a neutral (2 knuckle) left hand grip and the most for a weak (1 knuckle) left hand grip. Once the clubface becomes square by P6.9, then the different hand release actions become operant and they all ensure that the FLW/LAFW remains intact between P6.9-P7.2+. There should be no difference in clubhead speed between the different hand release actions - if the LAFW remains intact between P6.9 and P7.2+. One could get a fractionally faster CH speed by flipping after impact and destroying the intact LAFW/FLW alignment - but the amount is miniscule (few mph increased speed). Any minimal increase in CH speed using a post-impact flipping action is counteracted by a potentially marked loss of accuracy if the timing of the flip is sub-optimal and the flipping actually starts during the time period of the immediate impact zone (between P6.9 and P7.1).
Jeff.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 29, 2012 20:30:08 GMT -5
Thanks.
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Post by virtuoso on Dec 30, 2012 13:11:02 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 30, 2012 15:06:28 GMT -5
Virtuoso,
Too many videos for me to download and run through my swing analyser program to check to see if you are definitely using my preferred DH-release combined with a delay in the onset of the full-roll hand release action. However, on simply looking at the videos at the recorded speed, it seems that you are using my preferred release pattern and keeping the FLW/intact LAFW facing the target to P7.3+.
How does it work for you compared to your regular swing in terms of the i) solidity of ball contact/striking; ii) ball flight pattern and iii) ball flight distance? Are there pros and cons to this "DH-release + delayed full-roll release" technique from your perspective?
Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Jan 3, 2013 11:21:31 GMT -5
Virtuoso, Too many videos for me to download and run through my swing analyser program to check to see if you are definitely using my preferred DH-release combined with a delay in the onset of the full-roll hand release action. However, on simply looking at the videos at the recorded speed, it seems that you are using my preferred release pattern and keeping the FLW/intact LAFW facing the target to P7.3+. How does it work for you compared to your regular swing in terms of the i) solidity of ball contact/striking; ii) ball flight pattern and iii) ball flight distance? Are there pros and cons to this "DH-release + delayed full-roll release" technique from your perspective? Jeff. Hey Jeff, tried experimenting back and forth between the 2 releases and they both feel good. At first, your release had slightly more right side angle and slightly more fade, which made me think I just advanced the same release sequence forward, ie, later. I strengthened up the left hand grip about 1/2 knuckle and that straightened out the flight, but it was ever so slightly lower, but still very good. I checked the numbers just for fun, and I didn't see much difference. The head speed at center face was around 89 for both, the closure was between 1650 and 1850 deg/sec for both, and the ball speeds were same. The aoa was neg 5 and the dynamic loft (allowing for face angle) was neg 8. The path tended to be pos 1 and the face was pos 2 with both on avg. Launch angle was same, maybe 16 on avg. The spin rate was slightly lower with yours, maybe 300 rpm...which is probably what I saw outside. (these were 6-iron shots) These numbers were just a snap shot, only 7 or 8 shots with each. Not sure what a more detailed analysis would uncover. Very fun to experiment with all this stuff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 3, 2013 11:51:27 GMT -5
Virtuoso,
Thank you for the useful update.
It confirms my suspicion that a golfer would not lose any distance or significantly alter impact conditions (CH path and CF angle and AoA) using my preferred technique where one simply delays the start of the roll motion that occurs naturally in a full-roll hand release action.
I can imagine that it may cause the CF orientation angle at impact to be slightly open if the golfer alters his pre-impact biomechanics and doesn't quite complete his PA#3 release action by impact - because he is mentally preparing to prevent a premature roll motion post-impact. However, once the delayed full-roll hand release action technique becomes ingrained as a "new" swing action, a golfer should find that he can complete his release of PA#3 efficiently and square the clubface by impact. Slightly strengthening the left hand grip can be useful because it decreases the chance of the FLW rolling uncontrollably through impact.
The advantage of the delayed full-roll hand release action versus the standard full-roll hand release technique (that you have habitually used) is that it keeps the clubface/path directed towards the target for a few more inches post-impact, and therefore decreases the chance of any flip-roll motion through impact. You are a superb golfer who has excellent timing and who can consistently avoid flip-rolling through impact, but many amateur golfer frequently manifest flip-rolling problems through impact, and my delayed full-roll hand release action may decrease the frequency of a flip-rolling swing fault.
Jeff.
p.s. I am so impressed by your ability to quickly learn how to perform a delayed full-roll hand release action, that I would like to feature your before-and-after swings in my revised "impact and followthrough" chapter, which I am presently writing - if you don't mind. You will remain anonymous (considering the fact that I don't even know what's your "real name").
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Post by virtuoso on Jan 3, 2013 12:22:43 GMT -5
No prob Jeff. You can use my swing images for anything you'd like.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 3, 2013 13:50:36 GMT -5
Virtuoso, Too many videos for me to download and run through my swing analyser program to check to see if you are definitely using my preferred DH-release combined with a delay in the onset of the full-roll hand release action. However, on simply looking at the videos at the recorded speed, it seems that you are using my preferred release pattern and keeping the FLW/intact LAFW facing the target to P7.3+. How does it work for you compared to your regular swing in terms of the i) solidity of ball contact/striking; ii) ball flight pattern and iii) ball flight distance? Are there pros and cons to this "DH-release + delayed full-roll release" technique from your perspective? Jeff. Hey Jeff, tried experimenting back and forth between the 2 releases and they both feel good. At first, your release had slightly more right side angle and slightly more fade, which made me think I just advanced the same release sequence forward, ie, later. I strengthened up the left hand grip about 1/2 knuckle and that straightened out the flight, but it was ever so slightly lower, but still very good. I checked the numbers just for fun, and I didn't see much difference. The head speed at center face was around 89 for both, the closure was between 1650 and 1850 deg/sec for both, and the ball speeds were same. The aoa was neg 5 and the dynamic loft (allowing for face angle) was neg 8. The path tended to be pos 1 and the face was pos 2 with both on avg. Launch angle was same, maybe 16 on avg. The spin rate was slightly lower with yours, maybe 300 rpm...which is probably what I saw outside. (these were 6-iron shots) These numbers were just a snap shot, only 7 or 8 shots with each. Not sure what a more detailed analysis would uncover. Very fun to experiment with all this stuff. On what device did you get a closure number?
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Post by virtuoso on Jan 3, 2013 14:13:07 GMT -5
CWD- PM'd you
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 4, 2013 10:17:52 GMT -5
Virtuoso,
I am also interested in learning how you are getting closure rate measurements.
Could you please provide a detailed answer?
Thanks,
Jeff.
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