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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 29, 2012 22:00:23 GMT -5
Will a slap hinge action increase clubhead speed at impact? Here is Martin Laird's opinion on how a slap hinge action through impact can increase swing power. He claims that an active right wrist straightening action through impact (that produces flipping) can increase CH speed. Here is David Tutelman's recent article on that subject. www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/accelerateThru.php He concludes that you could get an increased CH speed of 0.14mph (100.14 mph versus 100mph) and an increased distance of 15" if you tried to accelerate the CH through the impact interval. Jeff.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 29, 2012 22:40:33 GMT -5
Jeff -
How do you define flipping?
Not sure I agree that the author about the slap release meant "through impact" to mean no increased speed (in comparison to a different type release) before impact. Tuttleman's article assumes the same pre impact speeds for two shots and therefore isn't that helpful in trying to disprove a slap hinge release will not increase clubhead speed compared to a different release pre impact. Pretty hard to get such detail in a golf magazine article even though such detail might lead to a better understanding of the author's intent. Editors want more pictures, less words.
Not sure a clubhead going 100 mph can have no acceleration as stated by Tuttleman. It's accelerating at 100 mph. He might be using the term acceleration differently than speed as I used it. If he's saying that someone trying to increase speed in 1/2000th of a second from first touch through maximum compression has too short a time period to increase such speed from the prior speed at first touch I suspect everyone would agree.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 30, 2012 1:11:12 GMT -5
cwdlaw223,
It is a mistake to equate the term "acceleration" with CH speed. The term "acceleration" imples an increasing rate of CH speed and not a constant rate of CH speed. So, if two CHs are travelling at 100mph at P6.9 and the one CH is accelerating then that means that a force was applied to make the CH travel faster through impact. The sudden application of a push-force via the right hand to the aft side of the club at P6.9 (using a slap hinge release action) could potentially provide that force to accelerate the club through impact. As DT argues, it will not significantly increase CH speed at P7 because an active right wrist palmar flexion action cannot provide enough force to affect the CH speed (which is already traveling at 100mph), although it will produce flipping through impact if it causes the CH to fractionally speed up and bypass a stalling FLW after impact.
DT has a number of articles that calculate the amount of force that can applied by an actively straightening right wrist at different time points in the late downswing and he shows that one cannot increase CH speed significantly using that positive right wrist torque technique.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 30, 2012 12:37:55 GMT -5
I believe there is a reasonable argument that applying an active torque through the wrist joint will add some clubhead speed, but the player doesn't need to flip to do that.
Kelvin's research partner Rick Malm has spent a lot of time studying and modeling Jamie Sadlowski's swing. Jamie claims that he applies wrist torque at impact (a skill that he developed by playing a lot of badminton), and Rick has confirmed through modeling that it seems very likely that he does (Rick uses a modeling software that will compute resultant clubhead speed from a set of variables including things like club length, arm length, wrist cock, and applied torques at the lead shoulder and the wrists). Of course, Jamie is a poster-boy drive/holder.
This is perhaps the concept that people like Manzella and cw find the most difficult to accept: that a proper drive/hold release does not involve actively resisting the release of the wrists through impact. Just because Manzella taught a handle-dragging release for twenty years doesn't mean drive/holders with high clubhead speeds are handle-dragging. In fact, their high clubhead speeds are pretty good evidence that they aren't!!! But common sense logic like that has no standing with some folks if it challenges a cherished belief...
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 30, 2012 12:43:09 GMT -5
Oh, and I forgot to mention, Rick has debated this topic extensively with Tutelman, and he might agree with you that Tutelman's knowledge of biomechanics is not David's strongest area of expertise...
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 30, 2012 13:23:45 GMT -5
Jeffy -
Pretty hard to understand what Kelvin means by a drive/hold release when he won't explain what's driving and/or holding. It can mean anything. Please don't say just read the articles. Kelvin's articles say nothing about what's driving (ex. PP#3?) or what's holding.
What's driving? What's holding? Should be easy to answer but those questions have NEVER been answered with any real detil by Kelvin or you. TGM answers these questions with its release patterns as Jeff M explained when he previuosly discussed this topic. Kelvin avoids specifics presumably so he'll never be wrong since it can mean many things. Why he would use the term "holding" for a release that now appears to not involve any "holding" is something he'll have to explain to his followers.
Why anyone would base a pattern based upon 2nd or 3rd in long driving distance and control is also amazing. Zubak has Jamie beat in that department. Jamie might end up beating Zubak, but Zubak is still in 1st. (I wouldn't base a pattern off of any of those freaks, but it goes to show the inconsistency in putting Jamie as the gold/platinum standard without any real data other than Long Drive wins.)
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 30, 2012 13:50:06 GMT -5
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 30, 2012 14:24:06 GMT -5
So you are going to keep avoiding answering what's driving? What's holding? I suspect you don't know but the least you could do is admit you really don't know how anyone drives or holds according to Kelvin and it's just a look. Should be easy to answer unless it's just a look. I'll even excuse the logic of not using Zubak as the gold/platinum model despite the fact he has more long drive championships than Jamie.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 30, 2012 15:16:33 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "I believe there is a reasonable argument that applying an active torque through the wrist joint will add some clubhead speed, but the player doesn't need to flip to do that."
Which wrist joint? How is it applied, when is it applied? What "evidence" do you have that it significantly increases CH speed at impact?
I also think that KM has not defined the term "drive-holding" in his articles. What is driving? What is holding?
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 30, 2012 15:55:35 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " I believe there is a reasonable argument that applying an active torque through the wrist joint will add some clubhead speed, but the player doesn't need to flip to do that." Which wrist joint? How is it applied, when is it applied? What "evidence" do you have that it significantly increases CH speed at impact? I also think that KM has not defined the term "drive-holding" in his articles. What is driving? What is holding? Jeff. Which wrist joint? At a minimum, I presume the trailing wrist, maybe both. I didn't ask Rick. How is it applied? I suppose the same way one flicks a badminton racquet. When is it applied? As late as possible, I would think. I didn't say wrist torque added "significant" speed, I said it added some. I don't recall how much, but Rick modeled Jamie "with" and "without" wrist torque, and the "with wrist torque" Jamie-model was able to reach his actual measured clubhead speed, whereas the "without wrist torque" Jamie-model didn't. Get ahold of Rick if you want more details. I think Kelvin gives a very complete description of the drive/hold release in his articles, starting with this one: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.htmlThen adds a lot more detail in these: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-10-pga-tour-clubhead-lag-part-1.htmlwww.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-11-pga-tour-clubhead-lag-part-2.htmlwww.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-12-pga-tour-clubhead-lag-part-3-the-release.htmlWhat's "driving"? A whole bunch of things, primarily body rotation and the left side micro moves. In other words, the body and the left side aren't "stalling". What's being held? A bunch of things, but primarily right shoulder external rotation, right arm flexion and right wrist extension. In other words, "lag" is being held from releasing early. Then lag can be released just before impact (right shoulder moving towards internal rotation, right arm towards extension and right wrist towards flexion), without a flip at impact (pro-flip) or just after impact (under-flip or slap-hinge). Figured you'd know all that by now.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 30, 2012 18:29:47 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "I didn't say wrist torque added "significant" speed, I said it added some. I don't recall how much, but Rick modeled Jamie "with" and "without" wrist torque, and the "with wrist torque" Jamie-model was able to reach his actual measured clubhead speed, whereas the "without wrist torque" Jamie-model didn't. Get ahold of Rick if you want more details."
I don't need to contact Rick to know that's complete nonsense. There is substantial evidence from DT/Nesbit/SMK that one cannot really increase clubhead speed by flicking the right wrist straight just before impact.
Jeffy wrote-: "What's "driving"? A whole bunch of things, primarily body rotation and the left side micro moves. In other words, the body and the left side aren't "stalling". What's being held? A bunch of things, but primarily right shoulder external rotation, right arm flexion and right wrist extension. In other words, "lag" is being held from releasing early. Then lag can be released just before impact (right shoulder moving towards internal rotation, right arm towards extension and right wrist towards flexion), without a flip at impact (pro-flip) or just after impact (under-flip or slap-hinge). Figured you'd know all that by now."
I knew that KM has expressed those nonsensical beliefs. That type of right shoulder joint, right elbow joint and right wrist joint holding action applies to the situation prior to P5.5 - and it refers to the power package slotting phase when the power package is intact. The right arm straightening action happens between P5.5 and P7 and I think that it is ridiculous to think that one can still be holding "something" at impact if the forces responsible for holding ("right arm external rotation, right elbow bend and right wrist bend") disappear before impact. Also, if lag is released just before impact because of those right arm/wrist biomechanical changes, then there can be no right-sided biomechanical forces "holding" the left wrist flat through impact. That is totally inconsistent with how I perceive a drive-holding action through impact - where the FLW must be held in a functionally-flat position and where the holding action prevents left wrist breakdown at any time through the immediate impact zone (and preferably to at least P7.2). When I use the term "drive-holding" with respect to impact (specifically between P7 and P7.2), I am referring to the biomechanical forces that keep the left wrist flat and prevent flipping. I think that it makes no sense to talk of "lag holding phenomena" that occur during the power package slotting phase and which disappear between P6 and P7 - because those "lag holding forces" are obviously then not operant during impact. Holding lag in the early-mid downswing has nothing to do with a drive-hold hand release action through impact (where there is no lag because the LAFW must be intact through impact, which means that the left arm must be in a straight-in-line with the clubshaft).
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 30, 2012 19:29:17 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " I didn't say wrist torque added "significant" speed, I said it added some. I don't recall how much, but Rick modeled Jamie "with" and "without" wrist torque, and the "with wrist torque" Jamie-model was able to reach his actual measured clubhead speed, whereas the "without wrist torque" Jamie-model didn't. Get ahold of Rick if you want more details." I don't need to contact Rick to know that's complete nonsense. There is substantial evidence from DT/Nesbit/SMK that one cannot really increase clubhead speed by flicking the right wrist straight just before impact.I know of no "evidence", just some argumentation. What "evidence" are you talking about? Rick has spoken to Tutelman and Tutelman just doesn't believe that the application of wrist torque can be timed to occur at impact. With a little practice, Rick can apply measurable wrist torque at impact and believes that a well-trained, elite athlete like Sadlowski can do it very effectively. It's a free country, think whatever you want.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 30, 2012 21:20:37 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " Rick has spoken to Tutelman and Tutelman just doesn't believe that the application of wrist torque can be timed to occur at impact. With a little practice, Rick can apply measurable wrist torque at impact and believes that a well-trained, elite athlete like Sadlowski can do it very effectively." That's not what DT states in this article where he mentions Rick Malm. www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/handhit.php#shouldersofgiantsHe stated the following-: " In fact, this test was tried by Rick Malm using better cameras and swing analysis software. (One of the lovely things about science is that it invites others to validate or disprove results by doing their own testing.) In addition to being a scientist and researcher, Rick teaches speed training for golf, so if anybody can demonstrate "fast hands" it should be Rick. Rick was able to create a 90ยบ release using wrist torque much faster than I could. Depending on the details of the experiment, it took between 60 and 83msec. That is roughly the same as the 70msec it takes for inertial release. So Rick can possibly keep the shaft from bending forward, but even he would not be able to apply much "slap" to the head to increase clubhead speed." As you like to often say-: It's a free country - believe whatever you want." Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 30, 2012 22:52:45 GMT -5
So, at 57, my memory of what Rick told me in Phoenix a few weeks ago isn't perfect. Sue me.
However, Rick is 62, and, although he is in good shape, he is far from an elite athlete, so Tutelman's assertion that "if anybody can demonstrate 'fast hands', it should be Rick" is downright foolish. Similarly, Tutelman's conclusion that "even he would not be able to apply much 'slap' to the head to increase clubhead speed" is equally foolish in its implication that nobody else could do it. To compare Rick's golfing skills to Sadlowski's is like comparing what a Little League pitcher can do to Mariano Riveria.
BTW, what evidence were you talking about? Don't think you answered that question...
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 31, 2012 0:05:04 GMT -5
If you want to believe that Sadlowski is increasing CH speed at impact by applying a push-force with his right hand - you are free to harbor that "belief". I would need some "evidence" that it is physically possible to straighten the right wrist fast enough to apply that additional push-force that can supposedly increase CH speed - when the CH speed is already reaching 140mph near impact. I would also like to know how the application of that force doesn't cause Sadlowski's intact LAFW to beakdown through impact and how the clubshaft doesn't bypass his left forearm between P7 and P7.2. What is holding his left wrist in a functionally-flat position through impact (between P7 and P7.2) if that additional push-force is operant as his left hand reaches impact? Does Sadlowski instantaneously turn-off that push force at the exact moment of impact and thereby avoid flipping-through-impact?
Jeff.
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