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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 23, 2013 18:19:03 GMT -5
See this thread started by the SE. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teacherfolder&action=display&thread=4047The SE believes that "real" clubhead lag is the lag of the clubhead relative to the grip - due to shaft flex. Who believes that's the true definition of lag as defined by Homer Kelley in the TGM book? The SE even believes that it is the source of real swing power when he stated-: " The point I was making was this bending of the clubshaft- the clubhead not just lagging behind the hands, but lagging behind the opposite end of the clubshaft, was the real clubhead lag that is referred to in TGM, and is the source of real power." Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jan 23, 2013 19:50:04 GMT -5
LOL! Thanks for the head's up, I hadn't looked at that thread yet, so you saved me five or ten minutes of my life...
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 26, 2013 12:48:11 GMT -5
"Who believes that's the true definition of lag as defined by Homer Kelley in the TGM book?" How about Lynn Blake for a start? www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzG7thLPnBUBut let's be honest, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else *thinks* is clubhead lag, as it's defined in TGM. You only need to dust off your copy of the book and look for yourself. So how about it Jeff? Go through the book and show me, and the good folk of your forum, where I'm wrong. May I suggest you begin with "clubhead lag" in the glossary, then look from 6-C-2-0 to 6-C-2-D for a comprehensive understanding of it. Yours respectfully, The Swing Engineer
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 26, 2013 13:02:21 GMT -5
"Who believes that's the true definition of lag as defined by Homer Kelley in the TGM book?" How about Lynn Blake for a start? www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzG7thLPnBUBut let's be honest, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else *thinks* is clubhead lag, as it's defined in TGM. You only need to dust off your copy of the book and look for yourself. So how about it Jeff? Go through the book and show me, and the good folk of your forum, where I'm wrong. May I suggest you begin with "clubhead lag" in the glossary, then look from 6-C-2-0 to 6-C-2-D for a comprehensive understanding of it. Yours respectfully, The Swing Engineer This post assumes the book was correct, just because its printed does not make it so.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 26, 2013 13:11:30 GMT -5
SE,
I am happy to accept your challenge.
Consider the definition of clubhead lag - as presented in the glossary of the TGM book.
There are two definitions there - a mechanical definition and a golf definition.
Consider the golf definition of clubhead lag. HK stated-: "The information transmitted through the #3 pressure point by the resistance of the clubhead to change".
I have bold-highlighted the phrase "information transmitted", which means that in a TGM swinger's action, PP#3 is in a sensing mode and it senses the degree of clubhead lag at every moment of the downswing. In other words, between P4 and P7, a swinger should sense lag pressure at PP#3 due to the fact that the clubhead is lagging behind the FLW/ left hand, which is pulling the grip end of the club. This sensation of lag pressure is lost at low point when the clubhead catches up to the FLW, but lag pressure is felt throughout the entire downswing due to fact that the clubhead is lagging. Note that I have not mentioned the term "shaft flex" in this explanation. A swinger should be able to sense lag pressure via PP#3 even if he swings a club that has such a stiff shaft that it is incapable of shaft flex - as long as the clubhead is lagging behind the FLW/left hand, which is pulling the grip end of the club.
Jeff.
p.s. I think that LB is wrong to state that lag pressure at the start of the downswing is dependent on shaft flex. A sense of pressure will still be felt via PP#3 even if the shaft doesn't flex - as long as the clubhead is in a state of inertia and resists moving when the left hand starts moving. If the shaft flexes, thereby allowing the clubhead to lag much more behind the moving left hand, then the sense of pressure-sensation at PP#3 will increase, but it will still be felt in the absence of shaft flex.
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 26, 2013 14:14:47 GMT -5
SE, I am happy to accept your challenge. Consider the definition of clubhead lag - as presented in the glossary of the TGM book. There are two definitions there - a mechanical definition and a golf definition. Consider the golf definition of clubhead lag. HK stated-: "The information transmitted through the #3 pressure point by the resistance of the clubhead to change". I have bold-highlighted the phrase "information transmitted", which means that in a TGM swinger's action, PP#3 is in a sensing mode and it senses the degree of clubhead lag at every moment of the downswing. In other words, between P4 and P7, a swinger should sense lag pressure at PP#3 due to the fact that the clubhead is lagging behind the FLW/ left hand, which is pulling the grip end of the club. This sensation of lag pressure is lost at low point when the clubhead catches up to the FLW, but lag pressure is felt throughout the entire downswing due to fact that the clubhead is lagging. Note that I have not mentioned the term "shaft flex" in this explanation. A swinger should be able to sense lag pressure via PP#3 even if he swings a club that has such a stiff shaft that it is incapable of shaft flex - as long as the clubhead is lagging behind the FLW/left hand, which is pulling the grip end of the club. Jeff. p.s. I think that LB is wrong to state that lag pressure at the start of the downswing is dependent on shaft flex. A sense of pressure will still be felt via PP#3 even if the shaft doesn't flex - as long as the clubhead is in a state of inertia and resists moving when the left hand starts moving. Jeff, may I sum up your understanding of clubhead lag as simply the clubhead trailing behind the hands? If that's the case, then yes, you may use the 3PP to feel that type of lag. And yes, the golf example you gave from the glossary would agree with your understanding. But clubhead lag, as Mr Kelley describes it, is more than that. Look to 6-C-2-A, where Mr Kelley explains clubhead lag. The middle paragraph: "The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting a change in its direction or velocity - which is acceleration. Acceleration bends the Clubshaft during Radial Acceleration (10-19-A). Change of direction bends it during Longitudinal Acceleration (10-19-C) which may be, or just include, the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point in addition to its main function of Acceleration Control. From putter to driver, the Clubhead Lag technique is indispensable." Look to 6-C-2-D, where Mr Kelley explains lag loss. "The very small degree of clubhead lag permitted by clubshaft flex, makes this procedure especially susceptible to clubhead throwaway." Look at the picture entitled "Clubhead Lag" on 6-C-2-0. what do you see? It's not a picture of the clubhead trailing behind the hands, it's a picture of a weight pulling down on the clubshaft, bending it. Mr Kelley says in 1-H regarding his work; "A complete definition can only be the sum of the comments about it". You can't pick out a single quote from TGM, like the glossary example, give your interpretation of what that means, and then expect that to be the "complete definition". If you still don't believe clubhead lag is the bending of the clubshaft as per Mr Kelley's usage of the term, after reading my own explanation with verbatim quotes from Mr Kelley, and from watching a video of a highly regarded TGM AI explain it, then why not ask Mr Daniels himself. Go the TGM site, ask "Is clubhead lag, as described by Mr Kelley, the bending of the clubshaft, or just the clubhead trailing behind the hands?" Unfortunately, I suspect you'd made up your mind what clubhead lag was a while ago and will no longer accept any other explanation, even when it's straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. Respectfully, The Swing Engineer
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nibor
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by nibor on Jan 26, 2013 14:43:55 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 26, 2013 16:31:04 GMT -5
SE,
You wrote-: "Unfortunately, I suspect you'd made up your mind what clubhead lag was a while ago and will no longer accept any other explanation, even when it's straight from the horse's mouth so to speak."
I don't like your narrow-minded attitude and I may eventually decide not to respond to your posts if you continue to assert that I am too close-minded to alter my opinions.
Also, there is no "straight from the horse's mouth " person alive since HK is dead. Asking Joe Daniels or LB is only supplying me with their personal interpretation of TGM mechanics and that is not necessarily the same as HK's "true" intent.
You quoted parts of the TGM book that refers to shaft flex, but those quoted statements do not state that lag is a measure of shaft flex. The term clubhead lag only refers to the clubhead. Now, I would readily agree that a flexible shaft will obviously affect the magnitude of the sense of lag pressure felt by PP#3 in the presence of a lagging clubhead - depending on the degree of shaft flexibility. However, that doesn't mean that the sense of lag pressure is primarily measuring the degree of shaft flex. I think that the presence of shaft flex only modulates the amount of lag pressure sensed by PP#3 in the presence of a certain finite amount of clubhead lag.
Also, in the LB video, he claims that one can still sense lag at impact when the peripheral shaft is flexed forward and the clubhead is ahead of the hands. I believe that it is impossible to sense clubhead lag pressure when the clubhead is ahead of the hands. I think that what a golfer is sensing at that time point is the sense of retained flex in the proximal shaft, which is still angled back away from the target - even though the peripheral shaft is flexed forward in the direction of the target. That forward flexing of the peripheral shaft is actually happening between P6 and P7, and therefore any sense of lag pressure felt during that time period is being continuously affected by that peripheral shaft "kick-forward" phenomenon.
In "real life" I don't think that there is any value in trying to sense lag via PP#3, because I don't think that it helps a golfer optimize his downswing mechanics/biomechanics. I therefore never discuss lag sensing in my review papers. I realize that TGM literalists disagree with my personal opinion, and that's OK by me because I am definitely not a TGM literalist. I only believe in the practical utility of certain TGM concepts, and not all of them.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 26, 2013 16:35:37 GMT -5
Nibor,
You wrote-: "However, the contribution to total clubhead velocity due to the shaft flex is small compared to the contribution of the release of PA # 2 and 3."
I agree with your position - I think that the true source of swing power in a swinger's action is secondary to the sequential release of PA#4 => PA#2 => PA#3, and I believe that only a small amount of clubhead speed (obtained by impact) comes from generating a certain finite amount of shaft flex during the downswing action.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 26, 2013 18:01:17 GMT -5
SE,
Another comment - you wrote-: "Look at the picture entitled "Clubhead Lag" on 6-C-2-0. what do you see? It's not a picture of the clubhead trailing behind the hands, it's a picture of a weight pulling down on the clubshaft, bending it"
I can see no bending of the clubshaft in that photo. Secondly, it obviously shows CH lag because the clubshaft-left arm angle is ~90 degrees.
Finally, I think that the "weight" that HK placed on the end of the shaft is "symbolic" - and it represents the "weight of inertia" that is secondary to the clubhead lagging behind the left hand when the left hand starts moving at the start of the downswing, and starts pulling on the grip end of the club.
Jeff.
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Post by bullet on Jan 26, 2013 22:37:04 GMT -5
I think chuck Evans had some time with homer , also tomasello a lot and guys who learnt Tgm through him are well versed . Of course the legend ogrady knows it better than anyone , he was homer's experiment
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Post by bullet on Jan 27, 2013 9:26:39 GMT -5
Lmao at wrx forum where a chop is rehearsing a reverse shift and Tgm resident expert " left hook" a serial offender , offers to correct the chop ( who thought he was rehearsing a double shift) with the advice he was doing a single shift . He probably doesn't even know its how the sweet spot moves either
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 27, 2013 18:42:12 GMT -5
“I don't like your narrow-minded attitude and I may eventually decide not to respond to your posts if you continue to assert that I am too close-minded to alter my opinions.”
I apologise if I’ve offended you Jeff, that’s certainly not my intent. Look at the situation. You don’t believe my explanation of clubhead lag when I’ve quoted verbatim from Mr Kelley, you don’t believe Lynn Blake’s explanation of clubhead lag after watching his video, and you wont ask Mr Daniels what his explanation of clubhead lag is because you already know you wont believe that either. I think I’m justified in saying you’ve made up your mind and will no longer accept any other explanation.
“Also, there is no "straight from the horse's mouth " person alive since HK is dead. Asking Joe Daniels or LB is only supplying me with their personal interpretation of TGM mechanics and that is not necessarily the same as HK's "true" intent.”
Sorry for being ambiguous, when I say “straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak” I mean verbatim, straight from the TGM book. I’m all for empiricism, and I too wouldn’t take anyone’s personal interpretation of the book as law. That’s why in my website I explicitly tell people to look the information up for themselves, and I provide references for the reader to do so. But then I would be rather surprised to find the personal interpretations of Messrs Daniels and Blake to be different from Mr Kelley’s true intent. The reason being, they were both taught The Golfing Machine from Mr Kelley himself. There were no “Chinese whispers” or any nuances lost or misunderstood in passing down the generations. Mr Kelley wrote the book, and then he taught it to Mr Daniels and Mr Blake- and did so to a very high standard as befitting his methodical and thorough character. Why would a concept as simple as clubhead lag be so misunderstood by the very students Mr Kelley taught it to? It wouldn’t, and it wasn’t.
“You quoted parts of the TGM book that refers to shaft flex, but those quoted statements do not state that lag is a measure of shaft flex. The term clubhead lag only refers to the clubhead.”
I’d quoted parts of TGM that refer to shaft flex when Mr Kelley was explaining clubhead lag. I’ll certainly give it to you that he doesn’t write expressively “clubhead lag is the clubshaft bending”. But then I’ll put it to you, where exactly does he write expressively “clubhead lag is the clubhead trailing behind the hands”? I’ll save you the time of looking it up- he doesn’t. If the sections of the book I’ve given you, plus the other sections referred to in those sections (7-19 for example) don’t convince you then, well, what more can I say?
“I can see no bending of the clubshaft in that photo. Secondly, it obviously shows CH lag because the clubshaft-left arm angle is ~90 degrees.
Finally, I think that the "weight" that HK placed on the end of the shaft is "symbolic" - and it represents the "weight of inertia" that is secondary to the clubhead lagging behind the left hand when the left hand starts moving at the start of the downswing, and starts pulling on the grip end of the club.”
I owe you an apology there. You’re right, the picture doesn’t actually show the clubshaft bent. But then without the aid of photoshop or modern photo editing technology, that’s understandable. The best he could do at the time was draw a crude box shape “weight” to represent (and you’re bang on the money here) the resistance of inertia of the clubhead when changing velocity. And that “resistance of the clubhead to change” as per the glossary definition is clubhead lag. And that clubhead lag manifests itself through “the information transmitted through the 3rd Pressure Point”, and, thanks to the of the laws of physics, by bending the clubshaft. In 6-C-2-0 to 6-C-2-E, where he is exclusively discussing clubhead lag, he is talking about the stressed, bent clubshaft- not the clubhead trailing behind the hands as per your understanding.
I wont argue this any further. I’m happy to agree to disagree.
Again, as always, respectfully.
The Swing Engineer
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 27, 2013 20:12:21 GMT -5
SE,
You wrote-: "Sorry for being ambiguous, when I say “straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak” I mean verbatim, straight from the TGM book. --- But then I would be rather surprised to find the personal interpretations of Messrs Daniels and Blake to be different from Mr Kelley’s true intent. The reason being, they were both taught The Golfing Machine from Mr Kelley himself. There were no “Chinese whispers” or any nuances lost or misunderstood in passing down the generations."
I don't believe that it is possible to take things "straight from the TGM book" because HK wrote in such a turgid manner, that there are many different TGM instructors who interpret the same TGM book sentence very differently. You state that you would be surprsed if LB's and JD's interpretations would be different from HK's intent. I don't know why you believe that fact. The reality is that many TGM "experts" who were directly taught by HK have totally different interpretations of HK's intent eg. Ben Doyle, LB, Chuck Evans, Joe Daniels and Tom Tomasello. I have even had personal communication with two of those TGM "experts" and they have each told me that the other-mentioned TGM "experts" have wrongly interpreted the TGM book. If you have ever read LB's forum posts over many years, then you would realize what LB thinks of Joe Daniels and Tom Tomasello and Chuck Evans.
I also have 30 hours of audiotape of HK giving a 5-day Master Class in the early 1980's (just before his untimely death) and he gave different answers to essentially the same question posed by a different student on a different day. I think that talking in front of an audience was an Achilles heel of HKs because his personal verbal explanations were even more confusing than his TGM book explantions.
You also wrote-: "I’d quoted parts of TGM that refer to shaft flex when Mr Kelley was explaining clubhead lag. I’ll certainly give it to you that he doesn’t write expressively “clubhead lag is the clubshaft bending”. But then I’ll put it to you, where exactly does he write expressively “clubhead lag is the clubhead trailing behind the hands”? I’ll save you the time of looking it up- he doesn’t."
The bold-highlighted statement again reflects your close-minded, biased opinion. It is obvious that HK was referring to CH lag as being the CH lagging behind the hands. He describes that fundamental principle in 6-B-0 where he states-"Clubhead Lag is, of course, an out-of-line condition in the power package". It is the fact that the golfer gets the clubshaft to be out-of-line (relative to the left arm) at the end-backswing position that creates the condition of CH lag, and that represents the loading of PA#2. How could one possibly create swing power from the release of CH lag (which HK calls the release of PA#2) if one doesn't create that CH lagging scenario by creating the out-of-line condition of the left arm relative to the clubshaft during the backswing action?
If you don't believe that HK statement, then re-read 6-C-O where HK states specifically-: "Lag" defines the condition of "trailing" or "following".
Then look at the photo of 6-C-O #1 where he has a parachute attached to the CH when PA#2 is loaded at the time of the start-down. That parachute represents the drag that CH inertia will impose on the clubshaft at the start of the downswing when the golfer starts to move his hands from P4 to P5. That will cause the clubshaft to flex, and the degree of shaft flex will depend on the amount of left hand pulling force and the weight (and therefore inertia) of the clubhead and the flexibility of the shaft. Between P4 and P5.5/P6 (prior to the release of PA#2), the shaft must be flexed backwards because the left hand is pulling the grip end of club while the CH is still lagging (because PA#2 has still not released). During this time period, PA#3 should sense the maximum amount of lag pressure - depending partially on the speed of hand motion and partially on the degree of directional change in hand motion. However, when the club starts to release, the amount of lag pressure (and also the amount of backward shaft flex) must progressively diminish and at low point (when the clubshaft and left arm are in a straight line condition, and not in an out-of-line condition) there should be no residual sensation of lag pressure. In fact, if the clubhead bypasses the straight left arm prior to impact, and there is forward shaft flexing prior to impact, then the sensation of lag pressure should have dissipated even prior to impact.
You also wrote-: "And that clubhead lag manifests itself through “the information transmitted through the 3rd Pressure Point”, and, thanks to the of the laws of physics, by bending the clubshaft. In 6-C-2-0 to 6-C-2-E, where he is exclusively discussing clubhead lag, he is talking about the stressed, bent clubshaft- not the clubhead trailing behind the hands as per your understanding".
I agree with your bold-highlighted statements. However, the shaft only bends backwards because the CH is lagging (trailing behind the left arm which is in a state of dynamic motion) and the clubshaft is still in an out-of-line condition during the time-period when the shaft is bent backwards. When the clubshaft catches up to the straight left arm, it is no longer trailing and therefore the shaft cannot be backward-flexed because there is no longer any CH lag ("trailing of the clubshaft relative to the left arm").
Feel free to express your disagreement with my personal opinions, as I am always willing to carefully analyze a well-expressed contrary opinion. We (all forum members) learn "something" when exposed to a variety of personal opinions.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 28, 2013 0:17:53 GMT -5
SE, Further comments on the topic of CH lag. I am very familiar with the TGM perspective of Tom Tomasello, and I even have a pirated copy of 28 hours of videotape of a Tom Tomasello 5-day Master Class. Chuck Evans also gave me free access to all his TGM teaching videos at Medicus Golf. LB even temporarily allowed me to host a sub-forum in his TGM discussion forum for 3 weeks before he banned me for being too critical of HK's TGM ideas. Here is a link to the sub-forum - www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/forum152.htmlEven though LB banned me from his forum because I was too critical of HK"s TGM ideas, and although I still hold him in high regard, I do not agree with his opinions re:clubhead lag. His opinions on CH lag fit in more with your opinions, and he believes that CH lag pressure must be maintained throughout the entire downswing and through impact. That represents the "TGM-belief" that one must sustain lag non-stop throughout the entire downswing and into impact. That is why he promotes a "dragging a mop" philosophy as the "secret to golf". This "sustain the lag" philosophy is derisively referred to as "handle-dragging" by TGM critics. I am sympathetic to the TGM critics in this regard, because I think that in a swinger's action, the release of the club (release of PA#2) must occur automatically/naturally according to the principle of the driven double pendulum swing action. If the club releases according to the law of physics (law of the flail), then the amount of backward shaft flex must progressively decrease as the shaft progressively catches up the straight left arm. That means that any sense of lag pressure sensed by PP#3 due to clubshaft flex must progressively decrease between P6 and P7. That natural mechanical fact is incompatible with the TGM idea that a golfer must sustain lag pressure into impact (sustain clubshaft bending into impact). You are free to believe in the TGM idea of "sustaining lag" in a handle-dragging manner all the way to impact, but it is clear to me when viewing slow motion videos of professional golfers swinging a driver, that the backward flex of the shaft progressively diminishes between P5.5 and P7, which means that they are not "sustaining lag" in the clubshaft-bending manner that you, and LB, advocate. I also believe that there is no loss of clubhead speed as a result of that type of swing action, and I challenge you to explain why you believe that maintaining clubshaft-flex is the source of "real power" when you stated-: " the point I was making was this bending of the clubshaft- the clubhead not just lagging behind the hands, but lagging behind the opposite end of the clubshaft, was the real clubhead lag that is referred to in TGM, and is the source of real power." Here is Dominic Mazza's swing video when he hits 400 yard drives. Here are capture images. Note that the clubshaft is bent backwards at start-down (image 1) and during his power package slotting phase (image 2), but that the clubshaft is bent forward at P6.1 (image 3) and at P6.7 (image 4) which means that he is not stressing the clubshaft with "sustained lag pressure" in his late downswing action. If DM was using his PP#3 to sense lag pressure during his downswing, then he must surely be sensing less lag pressure between P6 and P7, compared to the time period P4 to P6. Jeff.
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