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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 13, 2013 22:12:40 GMT -5
See this 3jack forum thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=teacherfolder&action=display&thread=41053 jack and the SE think that Mike Bennett uses a punch elbow motion and 3jack thinks that he uses a CF-arm release action. I disagree! I think that MB uses a pitch elbow motion (because he is a swinger) and a CP-arm release action. See MB rehearsing his swing action in this video before performing a full swing action - note how he performs a classical pitch elbow motion in his swing action. Here are are capture images from his video. Note how much MB rotates his lower-mid torso counterclockwise between P7 and P7.5 and how much he directs his hands inside-left after impact. Also, note how he keeps his left upper arm tightly connected to his upper left chest wall and how he prevents his left upper arm from abducting away from his torso and how he avoids externally rotating his left upper arm - those are characteristic biomechanical features of a golfer who uses a CP-arm release action and who moves the intact impact triangle inside-left after impact while using a no-roll hand release action (note how MB maintains a bent right wrist to P7.5+). Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Feb 14, 2013 1:52:40 GMT -5
Many of the videos on youtube of MB are from clinics, having been to one of them he almost never hits a stock shot. He is hitting big draws, big fades to demonstrate different shots, so I don't feel we can accurately assess his swing from videos from clinics.
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Post by bullet on Feb 14, 2013 8:36:08 GMT -5
Bennett is not even close to cp
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Post by richie3jack on Feb 14, 2013 9:00:05 GMT -5
That's clearly a drill that Mike Bennett is doing there and anybody who has ever done them knows that they alter a lot of the mechanics of the swing when you film them.
Mike Bennett would tell you himself that he uses punch elbow with a CF release.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 14, 2013 9:15:05 GMT -5
The baseline is definitely shifted out to the right in his stock swings.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 14, 2013 11:18:47 GMT -5
mchepp/3jack, I stand corrected now that I have examined two videos of MB's stock swing. In that clinic practice drill swing video, he must have been trying to do "something" very different to his usual swing because he used a pitch elbow motion and a CP-arm release (where he maintained a bent right wrist and where he had a lot of torso rotation through impact). I have noticed that he uses a punch elbow motion in his stock swing and that he has very little torso rotation in his stock swing, and that he also straightens his right wrist post-impact when he uses a CF-arm release action. Here are capture images from the video posted by Greg. Image 1 is at P5.5, image 2 is at P6, image 3 is near 7 and image 4 is at P7.5. One can clearly see that his right elbow is positioned behind his right hip area at P5.5, and that he then straightens his right arm without moving his right elbow in front of his right hip area (as he did in my first posted video). He also has very little torso rotation and he releases his arms in a CF-release manner. He also allows his right wrist to straighten post-impact. I found another BM video that shows the same biomechanical phenomena. Here are capture images from the video. Image 1 is at P5.5, image 2 is at P6.2, image 3 is at P7 and image 4 is at P7.5. His right elbow is positioned slightly behind his right hip area in image 1, and then he straightens his right arm without moving his right elbow across the front of his right hip area. I agree that it represents a punch elbow motion. Also, note how he straightens his right wrist post-impact in image 4 as he uses a CF-arm release action. It is a very different followthrough action compared to the capture images that I originally posted when he maintained a bent right wrist to the P7.5-8 position, and where he had far more torso rotation post-impact. His right elbow is well in front of his right hip area at impact, and he still has a slightly bent right arm in image 2 with a significantly bent right wrist. Image 3 is at P7.5 and he still has a bent right wrist and that is only possible because he has moved his right shoulder more downplane - compared to the P7.5 position (image 4) of his stock swing. It is a very different arm/hand release action than occurs in his stock swing. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 14, 2013 12:01:23 GMT -5
I do think he knows how to CP it and shift the baseline left, its just not the pattern they teach.
All this golf discussion is kinda giving me the itch to hit balls again (have not hit a ball since July (played twice)).
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Post by virtuoso on Feb 14, 2013 12:05:43 GMT -5
Do any of you guys have any precise definitions of CP vs CF?
Is it more of a baseline shift or is it the level of club independent inertial release?
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 14, 2013 12:10:43 GMT -5
Do any of you guys have any precise definitions of CP vs CF? Is it more of a baseline shift or is it the level of club independent inertial release? Exact definition, I don't, its more of a collection of moves to me. There is a pure physics definition. I think Jeff's paper does a good job if you have not seen it.
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Post by virtuoso on Feb 14, 2013 12:36:11 GMT -5
Hmm, how could the physics be any different?
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Post by richie3jack on Feb 14, 2013 14:28:27 GMT -5
I would guess that Mike is trying to move the swing centers forward in the first video and he's using that drill to incorporate that feel.
They like to CF for various reasons. They feel it is easier for golfers to execute and it in general produces an open face with an inside-to-out path right of the face, producing a push-draw. If they want to hit a fade, same pattern mechanics...just alter some things at address. If they want to hit a big draw/hook, there's a video with Steve Sieracki explaining how they accomplish that procedure.
They use punch elbow because they are using a CF pattern and that helps prevent the shoulders from being open at p6.
Pitch elbow tends to promote more of a shoulders open at p6 which is more in line with a CP pattern.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 14, 2013 14:38:38 GMT -5
Hmm, how could the physics be any different? I just meant that there is a physics definition and then the golf usage of the term, they are not always the same which creates confusion.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 14, 2013 20:45:41 GMT -5
Virtuoso, I have only come across two described usages of the terms CP/CF arm release action. Usage #1: In this scenario, the golfer stands with his feet/body parallel to the ball-target line, but he then swings out-to-in (relative to the ball-target line) to hit a pull-fade shot, and because the arms/hands are moving inwards towards the body after impact, he refers to that swing action as a CP-arm release action. Alternatively, he may choose to swing his arms/hands in-to-out (relative to the ball-target line) to hit a push-draw shot, and because the arms/hands move outwards away from the body after impact, he would refer to that swing action as a CF-arm release action. He would also assert that this usage implies a shift of the baseline leftwards for a CP-arm release action, and rightwards for a CF-arm release action. Usage #2. In this scenario, the golfer stands with his feet/body parallel to the ball-target line, and there is no shift of the baseline in this scenario because the golfer will trace the SPL of the ball-target line when performing either a CP-arm release action or a CF-arm release action. Here is John Erickson tracing the SPL of the ball-target line using both a CP-arm release action (image 1) and a CF-arm release action (image 2). Image 1 - Note that the hands disappear inside-left very soon after impact due to the fact that he is moving his hands inside-left soon after impact using an active post-impact torso rotation combined with a tendency to keep the left upper arm closely connected to the upper chest wall. Note that he is tracing the SPL of the ball-target line, and that there is no shift of the baseline. This can produce a straight shot if the path/face are both zeroed-out at impact. Image 2 - Note that hands remain visible after impact because he is releasing his left arm in a targetwards-direction and there is very little torso rotation in this scenario, and the left upper arm moves outwards away from the chest wall. Note that he is tracing the SPL of the ball-target line, and that there is no shift of the baseline. This can produce a straight shot if the path/face are both zeroed-out at impact. I only use usage #2 when I refer to a CP/CF arm release action. Jeff.
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